Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

My Brother and I are considering trying to put together a Stk/SS combo racing association that will be based out of Tucson Dragway and Wild Horse Pass. We have been working on the rules and payout structure, first. We are now to the point where we want to gauge the interest level of the racers, before we sink all the time and effort into finding sponsorship dollars and contacting the tracks to work out a schedule. If we are only going to have a following of the two of us and 3 or 4 others this isn’t going to be realistic. Looking at the qualifying sheets from the WHP Divisional the past 3 years, between Stock and SS, if we got 100% participation from only the AZ cars, we could have a series of about 40-45 cars. Mind you we know that isn’t necessarily realistic. Even if we shoot for just 50% participation, from AZ, we could have 20-22 cars and have a nice series that may be able to grow in the future.

What we are asking for, at this point, is OPINIONS… don’t just be a Negative Nancy because you aren’t interested. We want to know what the racers would like this series to be… What it would take for you guys to be interested enough to come out and race with us. I think from a “future of our sport” stand point, this will be something that we may be able to get some people exposed to class racing that haven’t been yet. We can get a few people hooked on S/SS that either don’t follow the Lucas circuit or can’t afford to, so they don’t even attempt to put a car together. Not trying to play this off as “The fix to the end of S/SS,” but I think this could only help.

Here is what we have so far as far as rules:

Arizona Stock / Super Stock Association

• Open to all NHRA and IHRA legal cars (Are there any nostalgia classes/cars in the area that would be interested in racing… too young to know what they are)
• All cars must dial at or under their index (NHRA) Tucson to use 1.0281 adjustment factor.
• Heads up runs will be run for pairs of same class cars during Eliminations, there will be weight checks for all these pairs as well as random weight checks when a scale is available.
• There will be no fuel check as we do not have the equipment to enforce this. Must run Gasoline.
• S/SS will be run as one class
• No double entry – You are more than welcome to double enter with any other classes racing at the track that day.
• Points are earned by individual not car
• The ladder will be qualified based on reaction time. We will ladder 1st round.
• There will be two qualifying runs for sure, and time permitting a run for the money or just a 3rd qualifying run.

Membership and Entry info

• Annual Membership - $50 Optional (All membership fees collected will go towards year end point series awards and prizes.)
• All membership fees paid are good until 12-31-XX of the year paid. Membership fees are not prorated for joining later in the year.
• Entry $50 paid at ASSSA booth – This fee is in addition to any gate fee charged by track (100% of entry fees, for the ASSSA portion only, will be paid back in the purse.) Currently hearing $30 for TD and $40 for WHP as the track gate fee.
• Run for the Money - $10 (if we do one.. 100% payback)
• Payouts aren’t finalized yet. What we want to include here for now is that if a round comes down to a non-normal number (normal being 16, 8, 4), we will pay the best loser(s) of the prior round until the correct amount of places has been paid. (ex: round of 8(quarters) has 6 cars; the monies for the other 2 allotted spots would pay the best 2 losers of the round of 16.)
• To be eligible to collect points, you must be a current ASSSA member. You must pay membership monies before you leave the track for the day. Meaning if you run the race as a non-member and decide before you leave you want your points for the day you can still join and keep those points. If you wait until the next race to join you lose all previous rounds won and will start collecting points as of the day you pay.
• Each racer will receive 100 show up points and 100 points will be awarded for each round won.
• Qualifying points will be awarded based on best reaction time in qualifying.
• Qualifying points will be given in inverse order. (ex: There are 16 cars entered, number 1 qualifier will get 16 points, second qualifier will get 15 points all the way down to the last qualifier getting 1 point.)
• Points will be collected at your best 5 out of 6 races.
• Ties will be broken as follows:
o 1. Most wins
o 2. Most Runner Ups
o 3. Most wins head to head
o 4. Point total for all 6 races
o 5. Best Average Qualifying RT over races attended.




Proposed End of season points/prize fund (Dependant on sponsorship and membership monies)

Each prize listed below will be awarded to the driver(s) that are points earning members.

• Best finishing stocker (If you race both a stocker and super stocker throughout the year, your points will be calculated per car for this prize.)
• Best finishing super stocker (If you race both a stocker and super stocker throughout the year, your points will be calculated per car for this prize.)
• Top Tucson Dragway finisher (Most points collected by one racer at Tucson Dragway. This is by driver, not car type. All races at Tucson Dragway count toward this prize.)
• Top Wild Horse Pass finisher (Most points collected by one racer at Wild Horse Pass. This is by driver, not car type. All races at Wild Horse Pass count toward this prize.
• 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place point earners get year-end prize money. Prize money dependent on annual membership and sponsorship money in year-end prize fund. May pay further back as series grows and sponsorship allow.

We are talking about prizes ranging from parts donations, to cash monies, to a free entry to the divisional at WHP and hopefully Tucson Dragway if they are to get one in the future.

There is also talk about keeping track of average ET against your given index in qualifying only, and having the top 4 to 8, depending on participation, running a comp eliminator style race at the season finale for those racers who qualify. Something to keep the interest of this being a performance class not just a bracket race.



I’m sure there are things in here people don’t like. I’m sure there are things we haven’t thought of. I’m also sure that others have ideas that could be very good, and make this very successful. I won’t promise that just because you suggest something, that we will run with it and make it happen, but we are looking for input as to what you guys think is good, bad, or needs to happen to make you want to come race your cars.
Let us hear it. If you are interested in something like this give us a yay, if you think you’ll never participate because it isn’t a Lucas event let us know. We will pursue this strongly if there is genuine interest, say 10 to 12 cars to start, with the inclination that more are considering it. We don’t expect to have 64 car day one… but would love for it to get at least that big in the future!


Last thing I want to add is that if you or someone you know would be interested in sponsoring something like this, we have a few different sponsor package ideas we are working on right now. From a $250 race sponsorship, to about $2000 series sponsorship for year #1. We will also be contacting people about donating product and gift certificates for year-end prizes when/if we deicide the interest is there to move forward. We would love to kick this series off in 2017 and would most likely be looking to follow the schedule that the local ADRA and Super Comp associations are setting. But no dates have been worked on yet.


Thanks everyone and please, we want to do this for the racers involved, we want to make it something you want to participate in so give us your input! PLEASE pass the word to people that don’t look on Classracer. We only have contact info for very few people. Email one of the two emails below, so we can start a contact list of interested parties and keep everyone informed. our PM box is almost full so that probably wont be a very good way to reach us.

-The Hawk Bros
Brad and Matt Hawk

Coachbhawk13@gmail.com
mhawk@email.arizona.edu

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I will join. It sounds like a lot of fun without having to travel a long way.

Raul

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

We're in. 2 cars. I would think that qualifying off the index would give it more of a stock/superstock feel.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I like every thing except the qualifying with Reaction Times > not a good idea> The most under the index qualifying is best ,with a ladder :)

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I am interested if you have some races in Texas.

I expect the Texas Motorplex would draw some D 4 S/SS racers

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

We would be interested.

Irving Family Racing

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I'm in too. Sounds like a great idea.
My car should be done this fall.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

See Mark Yacavone

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I would be interested in Texas and Louisiana races.
Thanks

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I am in

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

x2^^^^
Mark tried for years. It was a great event with nostalgia drags and I think 18 cars at most per event. If car gets done by winter time I would have no problem attending race. Tucson track has always treated me great. WHP on the other hand.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Count me in

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I would suggest talking with groups like the Midwest Class Racers that have very successful programs going and see how they are doing things.

I would strongly suggest switching to qualifying off the indexes. And heads up races. Those are two of the biggest reasons people run these classes (in my opinion) Otherwise it is strictly a bracket race With really expensive cars.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Great to see other Stock/SS associations being potentially formed. Living in New England I'd never be able to support but wanted to provide the viewpoint on positives of qualifying off reaction time:

1) Associations are typically supported by the same group of racers at every event and those said racers typically have the same relative performance to each other over the course of the year. This means, that racers will qualify at relatively the same spot at every race and often be very close to having the same first round match up at every race. Can get old after a full year. Reaction times are much more random and keeps first round pairings "fresh".

2) Eliminates the ability for racers to play the "ladder game". Reaction times are unpredictable so shooting for a certain spot on the ladder is tough. This has more of an impact if heads up runs are allowed.

Ultimately the association needs to do what's best for its interested members but would suggest not ruling out the idea of qualifying off of reaction times for the long term benefit of the association. I would suggest that heads up are important to keep the spirit of stock/super stock (otherwise the argument of it being a normal bracket race is more valid).

Just some experiences from the east coast and take it as you like.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Thanks for the quick responses!

I want to clarify our thinking on a couple of the points that have been brought up. Lets have an open discussion and see if we can come to a compromise/agreement on how to do this.

First the 4 reasons we went with Qualifying on RT:

1. This series at least at first is going to be fairly small.. We are being realistic in hoping at race #1 we have a solid 20 cars.. if there is more we will be ecstatic. Our fear of qualifying against the index is that the ladder will look the same each and every race. That really isn't any fun.

2. We also don't want this series to be a rich man's game. We realize this class is expensive and it takes money and hard work to go fast, but like we stated in the original post. We want this to draw some new interest to S/SS. If we do the qualifying points the way were purposed. The number one guy is earning an 2 entire rounds worth of points over the last place guy just because he can afford to go faster. While we realize this is a performance class, we are just trying to balance the small scale and funding of the racer we are trying to attract. A lot of the reason for creating is to draw some of the racers that can't afford to run the Lucas series and get them cars out of the garage..We don't see a lot of money being spent to speed cars up at this point.

3. Next, we did look at a lot of the series that have rules posted across the country and most of them do use RT for qualifying. We thought, if a lot of them did it this way, it was fairly accepted.

4. We are only 2 people and we planned on racing at these events as well. This leaves us enough time to complete only certain things on race day, when it comes to extra work involved. We also don't own all the necessary tools to correctly do any kind of tear down. This means that if someone wanted to stretch the rules, we really don't have a realistic way of policing it. Will people do things like this?? who knows.. We are all aware of the stuff that is already done at the NHRA/IHRA racing because they are in a similar situation with no man power. They at least have HP consequences to help deter people for making outlandish passes with illegal combos.

We are for sure up for discussing potential changes to what we have laid out.

First of all, after these first responses, I think we want to include Heads up eliminations when same class cars run each other. We were already 50/50 on this and can see that this needs to be done.

What I would like to propose are 3 solutions to the qualifying aspect:

Option 1:

We leave the laddering of 1st round based on RT, but we could award qualifying points based on a different list of us qualifying against the index...points would only go to the top half of the field in similar fashion as we would have before. (ex: 16 cars. 1 would receive 8 pts down to number 8 receiving 1 pt. the bottom half of the field would receive no qualifying points, but this would accomplish part of the goal, of eliminating ties.) I would then also like to include a bonus point system for Win, Runner-up, and Semis. This being the Winner would receive 3 points. Runner-up 2 points. Each semi finalist would receive 1 pt. The rest of ties would be broken by the listed criteria in the original post..


Option 2:

We would always qualify against the index. Top half of field would get inverse points as before, and Win, R-up, and Semi would get same bonuses (per option 1), but in this option we would draw at race #1 whether we would be doing a PRO or SPORTSMAN ladder and rotate, or redraw at every race after that, so we might mix up the pairs a little bit. This would allow us to stay truer to the S/SS identity but also not become so predictable with the pairing every race.


Option 3:

We leave everything the way it is for qualifying and Matt and I will create a ladder based on what it would have been if we qualified against the index. We look at the 6 ladders from the year and see how similar they actually are. If they are very similar across the 6 races we stay with RT if they seem to have been justifiably different we switch to qualifying against the index for the future.

Let us know your favorite or let us know any other ideas..

Thanks

Brad Hawk

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I agree with qualifying off of RTs in order to avoid ladder monotony. However, I prefer the idea of heads up runs in eliminations to play into the Stock/Super Stock feel. Otherwise, we are essentially running Pro..

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Count me in too, once my car is built.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Qualify off RT from the last time trial. Makes it a drivers game instead of a wallet and ego game. No heads up, everyone dials, a drivers game. If it wasn't 400 miles away, I would be there. Good luck with it, sounds like a great idea, a class legal no E bracket race.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

* I'm in.

* Don't get bogged down with the details. It will always be about the FUN and Prize Money.

* If possible do two races for one tow (Saturday/Sunday).

* Avoid the hot summer (Note my personal prejudice).

* Contact John McLeod at Midwest Class Racers for the formula. Arguably the best series in the country. In a nutshell, 2 days @ $100 entry per, $2k/$1k/500 etc with 75 for rd2 loss, 60 car average in the middle of nowhere, BBQ, camaraderie AND 150+ sponsors @$250 which includes a lot of member support plus businesses which subsidize the purse. Of course that kind of program doesn't happen overnight.

Al Corda

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Mr. A Lee, you should help these guys with all of your experience. I understand you're card is clear lately, like, nothing better to do ??
Seriously, Uncle Al would be a great asset for your plan. Go for it!

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

We will try to make, really hard. Probably with the Stocker. Good luck. Let's fill the field. As a note: with no heads up and as long as you dial under the index.....anyone can win, ya don't have to run a second under.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Stock and Super is a Performance oriented class type of racing If you want a Bracket race with no rules other than safety then race every weekend , I will not support a race that does not use the present way of racing by qualifying under the index and by having heads up racing period.

Albert Lee should put up the purse for all to try and win

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

speaking of attracting the more budget oriented racer [which I am one of] travel mileage must be part of the equation.

In my situation, about 200 miles one way is my reasonable travel distance. For me, that means, Texas Motorplex, Houston, or Thunder Road near Shreveport with Noble OK being a maybe. I think a number of D 4 racers would attend event held at the above listed tracks.

In addition, a two race weekend is attractive.

Another consideration, your idea of attracting new or in-active racers is good and I applaud that effort. To do so, a bracket type format with reaction qualifying and no heads up is valid.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Thanks for the info Al, We are for sure doing to be looking to some of the long time guys like you and Yac for some advice, and also may be looking for some help with leads on potential sponsors..

Don, Which of the options in our second post would you be most willing to support??

We all have to remember that at this point, and for the foreseeable future we will be holding races at 2 tracks. More than likely we will have the same 15-25 racers at every event (if we get that many year 1). This isn't going to be a traveling circuit any time soon. The FUN part will start to fade and we will lose interest if everyone keeps lining up against the same people every race. Trying to build something that will be sustainable while also staying true to the spirit of the class in as many ways as possible.

Brad

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

BJ's bookstore may be able to put up some contingency. When you get farther along call me. Al is right. Don't get bogged down in details. You will probably start with the same 15 or 20 cars that supported Mark's deal and grow from there.

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Doubles work Best Buy some portable scales 😄

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

Racing Stock and Super Stock is not totally like bracket racing .There are rules for the specs of the engine , there are weight rules, there is a National index that each combination is classified under .About the only common trait to bracket racing is the safety rules.
Now in Stock and Super Stock a person can at their option pick a combination that they like either based on their own likes, or a combination that just maybe give them an edge in any part of racing Stock and Super Stock .The present rules with qualifying under national index works big time .The idea of a no break out with similar class works also . If these rules and regulation are not followed then it is Not Stock and Super Stock racing it is dumping down of the rules for no real viable reason,
Just my opinion:)

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

If some are in Texas we would come. No races in June,July or August to dang hot......

Re: Attention all az, ca, nv, ut, nm, tx stk/ss racers:
 

I'm in, stocker and maybe superstocker