Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Ya' know............I've had more oil starvation problems in the last few years than probably 10-20 guys combined.
Lost 2 engines in 15 years....meaning blocks and some other hardware.
Even now , with my new Dart block , the main AND rod bearings look like sheeeot........... Nothing is damaged but the bearings will have to be replaced. I currently have a new Lunati crank.........this is no cheapo' either.
The one common denominator in every engine has been the vac pump.
I currently use a STD. volume "Moroso" melling OEM style pump ( modified by Moroso ) and a new pan. But it doesnt matter what I use.......I still have oiling problems.
Bearing clearances are .0025- .003 ( thats not per side , thats total ).
The vac pump with the regulator "out of the box" regulated down to the lowest setting still pulls 15" in high gear thru the lights. I've read on other web sites " Yellow Bullet" where plenty of guys are running 18-20 inches ( all wet sumps ) and not having issues. External pumps , accumulators......I have no idea......but I don't believe they all are. How they are getting away with that is beyond me.
Soooo............the vac pump must go. Its effectiveness ( if any ) is being waaay over shadowed by the destruction it causes. If I drop it down to say 10 inches......I would be just as well off using crankcase vents.Super Stock engines can't even use them.........apparently they innovate some creative PVC system .......but I was concerned that would introduce some oil into the intake.......so , I'm not doing that. RPM range is 87-8800.
Can I hear some opinions on this ?:confused:

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Pics of bearings and rest of engine combo 8700-8800RPMs?.Bill C.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Why the question mark after the RPM?
No pics.........the bearings need to be replaced. What I see are bearings not getting sufficient oil. What exactly are you looking for?
I've used HV pumps ,STD volume pumps ,3 different oil pans , several different screen or baffle combos , 3- 4 different blocks , restrictors , no restrictors , WIX racing filters , K&N filters , 2 different cranks .........

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

What is the main bearing diameter, what brand oil and weight ?

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Why would you ask me what the main journal dia. is? 2.450 / 2.449..........the clearances are .0025 /.003.
The current oil is Brad Penn. Break in oil ( 30 weight ) ...........this inspection is only after 5 trips down the track.
BTW.......this is a 350 inch engine.......

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Because journal diameter tells you how much oil clearance is needed. .0025"/.003" is fine. How about your rod journal dia & clearance?
I ran a vacuum pump on mine before I made an SS legal car of it. I used the same pump and clearances then as now. I have seen no difference in bearings. I doubt it's the pump.
How much oil pressure?

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

60 PLUS......
Did you lose any power worth noting WITHOUT the pump?
At this point I have little choice but to run it without the pump. The bearings looked as though there was trash in the engine , as bad as I've seen............but , it may well have been bearing decomposition getting in the oil?
I cant take any pics now since my wife has the camera and she's out of town.....:D

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

On my old chassis dyno, taking the belt on & off the pump was a consistent ten hp at the tires. Probably worth 12 to 15 hp on an engine dyno. I can not imagine the vacuum pump causing a bearing problem. I also plug the bypass in the oil filter mount, so all oil goes through the filter. Keeps crap out of the bearings better. 60 psi has always been enough in mine. Ran 45 for years with zero issues. I'm no professional engine builder, so more knowledgeable pros here may have more info.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

WE use Brad Penn break in oil on our dyno a lot, but of all the break in oils we get the BP out of the engine before it goes in the car ,WE use vacuum pumps on most of race engine we build with no failures related to the vac pumps.Bill C.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Your 60lbs. oil pressure. Are you taking your oil pressure reading from the rear or the front of the block? MB.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Thank you all for replying , trying to help out BTW...
I take oil pressure off the rear of the block.
Every single bearing had trash in it..........I'm actually beginning to doubt the pump is the problem myself................hell , I dunno..........I mean , its not like I haven't put plenty of engines together over the years. I've actually had these engines ( in the race car ) apart over the years and the bearings come out looking great , also...........so as the thread states , this is a "mystery" to me.
Some of you may recall I have lost oil pressure even in this new block , pulled it down and found all the main bearings were completely destroyed .as well as the center main caps on a brand new Dart block.
Please look thru this thread..........realize the vac pump is the common denominator.
http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...t=61697&page=2

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

I've seen bad finishes on crank hurt bearings. Was every plug and all cam bearings removed from the block when it was cleaned,was it cleaned with brushes in all of the oil galleries ? Are all of the oil pump mating surfaces true and clean ,pick up welded and sealed to pump ? If it is pumping aerated oil through the system it will never maintain an oil wedge between the crank and bearings.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Center main caps ,Detonation ,very high cylinder pressure trying to push the crank out the bottom.Most bearing failures are from missed tune .Bill C.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Missed tune...........I sure hope not. At 355 inches , std port 23 degree heads N.A. and 3000lbs to run a 9.41@142 I must be doing something right , anyway.
No I'm not beating my chest here either..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeHwn70US3g
Total timing never more than 40 , 2 660's textbook jetting........etc etc

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Track performance is very impressive,Has the engine been on engine dyno?.Bill C.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Thank you.......and "sometimes" it is ,anyway.
Actually running a .60 anything is disappointing now.....
No on the dyno........I would guess around 630-640 using readily available formulas.
I'm going to solve this .........once and for all , before it even gets back in the car. I swear / hope.............lol

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Although my application was a Stocker, low to mid ten Ford small block, I had the same problem after about 5 or 6 passes. I had set my oil pickup clearance too short and it was starving my bearings. Set it to .400 and I never had any more problems. You can get it too close.
Sometimes its the little things you can take for granted.

Hope you figure it out.

An Accumulator can also help.

RJ

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Thanks.......great point. Mine may be a little too close too @ .250ish. or less even
The only way to fix is to take a 2x4 and wack the pan bottom a little.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

A 350" with 40 degrees?? Looks like CFM was right. I have never seen a 350" need more than 34 to 36. Sounds like detonation to me.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Can you verify that oil pressure is never lost during a run ? You could use a go-pro camera and focus on the gauge....poor mans Racepack...
Did you ever consider using an Accusump...to help maintain pressure in case it drops?



Timing is to high and could be knocking the bottom end out of it...detonation as Bill C. mentioned will kill any engine...
No reason to be that high...... a small cube engine with giant domes in small chambered heads in a heavy car might like 40-42 degrees but not for long if it detonates...

That engine sounds like an old school modified engine.....2-660 carbs....

8800 rpm is a lot......and hopefully has titanium valves and the best valve train pieces to be reliable....

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

OK...........I understand your "timing" points. I've run less , but it does in fact , fall off..................just for shyts and giggles I'll pull it down to 34 and see what happens........
Besides all this........I have to follow up with this closing comment.
I made the mistake of using the Brad Penn BREAK IN oil to make initial passes down the track ( 5 ) , no one ever warned me or told me otherwise..........call me a dumazz if you want , but I did, and I learned the hard way. My INTENTION WAS , run it a few times and change it.
Now , I know that was wrong..................perhaps the vac pump isn't the problem now , after all. I actually called Brad Penn and talked with "Ken?"
anyway he slammed me for doing that , so did my "old machinist" I use.......LOL
And Adger Smith made references to this as well.......the older I get , the dumber I still am........doubt timing contributed.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

I've personally made many passes with BP breakin oil in my engine, never had an issue with mine or the several engines I've freshened for other racers. Not sure that theory holds water, however the timing advice sounds like a likely cause. Hope you find it. BTW on the engines I've done for other folks , with a wet sump and vacuum pump I "request" they not pull more than 10 inches. That number is NOT a result of much R&D merely going off the condition of engines at tear down with a known amount of vacuum.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

JOESPANOVA,

I believe I have the answers you are looking for, and it would much easier to talk to you over the phone, and then post what we concluded.

If you would like to, please call me at Moroso at 203-689-4010

Thanks,

Scott Hall

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Will do.....today.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

I have a warning light if it drops below 20lbs.........C-12 and 14-1 and 39-40 degrees, I would think that's within some range of "acceptable limits"?
Steel valves here...............Comp 944 springs seem to get the job done.
Absolutely I've considered an Accusump......SS guys on this very forum suggest I don't need one

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

My engine builders would say your vacuum is too high.

dumazz :p

That said, making passes on break in oil is not your issue, many have including myself though not on brad penn, personally I would never use it, don't like what I've seen come out of friend's engines who run it. I've broken it using Joe Gibbs or Lucas and run Mobil 1 in my race engines for the past 25 years.

Otherwise, hope all is well.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Ed , at this point..........I don't even know if I want it (BP break in ) anywhere NEAR my oil pan...... LOL
Actually ......I'll probably go back to what worked in the past.........I've been in this thing waay too much in the last 4-5 months......
I'm sure BP is fine ..........just that now I'm tired of f'in around and need to get back to havin' fun. Hope this new Bullet cam gets me in the thirties...........

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Joe, my suggestion is talk to national known and proven engine builders for advice/guidance.

Maybe even better is to post your issue here...

http://drr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/80760912

and if FastBuick doesn't reply, shoot him a PM.

He is a competitor at my home track, running a high rpm small block turning 9.40s off the footbrake, on the hill in 4000 foot air which should be 9.20s at a sea level track. I don't know specifics about his combo.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Thanks

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

I suggest you title the post "High RPM small block"

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Funny.........when I think high RPM , I think COMP eliminator........10-11 or beyond......
Mine , not so much.
We all like video........right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmojLlr152s
My out of tune , detonating 355 and me beating the piss out of it during a time run at a Nostalgia event that I went to the finals in 2 years in a row.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Joe, in the bracket racing world, north of 7500 is considered high RPM and I've been told that FastBuick's engine IS a comp type engine and is turned higher RPM than yours.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

If you are having oil issues give the guys at Lightning Racing Oil a call. I have been using their 30 W racing oil in my car and it is running the best it ever has. It is non synthetic and is running faster than the synthetic I was running with the same weight. Just Google Lightning Racing oil and talk to Stacy King there. He will get you hooked up with what you need.

Re: Vac pump destruction / mystery
 

Thanks for the heads up.........I will.