Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

I'm looking at the NHRA Classification Guide online. For 1962, they spec the 421/405 Super Duty Cat, both all steel and with aluminum (3728 and 3633 lbs). Ok.


But for 1963 Pontiac, there is nothing listed for any 421/405 or 421/410. I know a few of the cars (14) were Swiss Cheese and those were A/FX or B/FX only. But there were about 74 Super Duty cars, some steel, some aluminum. Why wouldn't these be listed in the guide? It stops with the 421/370ho. Wouldn't a 421/405 be legal for stock class, at least all steel or maybe even with aluminum?


If 74 cars isn't enough, then how come in 1964 the 63-Z11 (57 cars) and 64-Galaxie.Hi.Riser (50 cars) were legal in AA/S?


Then again I looked for somebody who ran a 63 Super Duty in Stock back in the day and cant find any. All the old stuff is either Swiss Cheese et/mph, or S/S or A/S in AHRA, but nobody in NHRA.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

I checked one of my old NHRA Redbook Classguides and found a page for the 1963 Pontiac dated 1973. The top 421 shown is the 370 horsepower even back then.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

Likewise in 1970.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

Thanks for the replies.
I looked in every book I have and find that:

* Literature from the day does not mention the 421/405sd for 1963:
* Automotive Industries March 1963 car/engine specs
* CAR LIFE July 63 lists 389/215 thru 421/370 (and tests the 421/370), makes no mention of the 421/405sd.
* Angeles-McCarthy book (1981, 1st ed.) shows the 421/405 for 1962 but NOT 1963. Top engine on the 1963 page is the 421/370. Top engine in their 1961 table is the 389/348, they make a note that the 389/368 was a dealer-install. Implication is, in the 1981 edition they are listing the STOCK engines, so 1963 ends with the 421.370.


Literature from the modern era implies a factory 421sd option:
* McCarthy book (1989 edition) now lists the 421/405 for 1963, but it also lists the 389/368sd and 421/373sd for 1961. So clearly these tables include dealer-only options.
* Sessler "Ultimate American V8" (1999) engine tables list the 421/405-410sd for 1963, no mention it was dealer only. They also list the 389/368 and 421-8v for 1961 ie dealer only stuff is mentioned without noting it was dealer only.
* Gunnell "Standard Catalog of v8" (2003) does NOT list the 1960 389/363 or 1961 389/368 dealer-only SD's. Oddly, it does list the 421/405 for 1961 - that's a new one. And, it lists the 421/390-405-410sd as "Catalina 2dr only" for 1963.
* The giant "Encyclopedia of American Cars" by Consumer Guide (2006) lists the 421/390-410sd as "Optional, All". LOL.


* So all the 1981-and-previous literature implies there was NO factory 421/405sd etc option for 1963.
* And all the 1989-and-newer literature implies there WAS a factory 421/405sd etc option for 1963.
* My conclusion is the NHRA Tables (1970, 1973, and today) are RIGHT. There was no "official" factory 421sd in 1963.


* HOWEVER - McCarthy (1989 edition) lists about 74 Catalina/GrandPrix cars for 1963, by serial number, that are SuperDuty cars, many with aluminum sheet metal.
* Only 14 of these are Swiss Cheese cats and these were built with 389/215 engines.
* The other 60 or so were built with 421/405-410 engines. All produced October thru March. Were these NASCAR or Match Race only or why don't they count as "factory"?
* Maybe the 1963 Super Duty cars, even though they were factory built, violated the GM racing ban so Pontiac denied their existence, and it is only now ie post-1989 that they are acknowledged. Why 1989? Is this related to the Berlin Wall coming down?


LOL, I cant figure it out, but have finally concluded that NHRA is representing Pontiac's Official Intent - there was no Factory 421sd for 1963, even though the Factory built 60 of them.


Thanks again for the help!!!

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

Pontiac did produce 421 SD "Swiss cheese" cars in 1963. I watched one race locally when the cars were new and the driver, Charlie Mitchell, is a local hero. The car he had was a silver Catalina coupe with a 3-speed. Before that, he had a red '62 Catalina light weight car with a four speed. My only explanation is that Pontiac did not produce enough of one model to get approval by NHRA. There is some inconsistency in the decisions that have been made by NHRA for some 1960s specialty cars, and maybe this falls into that bucket.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

There could be some logic to the numbers - IIRC, NHRA had a minimum of 100 at one time, then 50 in 1964, but I think it was for a given ENGINE AND a given MODEL.


So, there were only 57 Z11 Chevs, but they were all 427/430hp and all 2door hardtops.
There were only 50 Lightweight Galaxies, but they were all 427 HiRisers and all 2door hardtops.


There were about 74 SuperDuty Cats, but they left the FACTORY as different models (post vs hardtop vs GrandPrix) and with different engines - in fact, all the Swiss Cheese Cats are factory 389-2bbl-3spd cars so they would not count as SuperDuty cars, let alone the holes in the frame.


There are 23 Cat Hardtops with the FACTORY 421/410hp, that is the most common model/engine combo of all the "Super Duty" cars McCarthy lists - and 23 would not meet the minimum.


I bet that's it! So with 74 "Super Duty Cars", a lot of books sorta-rightfully assume they existed, but the 23 common model/engine cars was not enough for NHRA.


I looked for a Mitchell car in McCarthy's book but don't see one - there are only 14 Swiss Cheese cars so it might be possible to hunt it down. McCarthy says in his book (1989) that 11 of the 14 had been found.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

Charlie Mitchell's car was owned by Caplinger Motors in England AR. I have asked around here several times, but i have found no one who knows what happened to the car.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

I don't see a Caplinger either. McCarthy lists the Swiss Cheese Cats as
* Blank
* Royal
* Thompson
* Vanke
* Van Winkle
* Unknown
* Beswick
* Union Park
* Seaton
* Unknown
* Packer
* Blank
* Collingwood
* Milner


So I guess its one of the 4 that doesn't have a delivery name already. The 1st 12 cars were silver, the last 2 gray. I should add, in the text McCarthy notes that though the Swiss Cheese engine code was a 389-2bbl, the 421sd was actually installed at the factory. Still a long way from the NHRA minimum 50 though.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

1963 Ford light weight Galaxies were low riser 427s, not high risers

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

Good catch, though I was a bit too terse.
I was trying to point our cases where NHRA allowed a car into Stock (or S/S) with only 50 units.
I was using the 1964 LWG, only 50 made, all 427 HR, but all hardtops ie all the same (vs the 1963 Pontiac 421sd cars) so NHRA let them in.


For 1963 I show 227 LWG total, those were all 427 LoRiser from the factory, a few did run the 427 HR late in the year but not in stock class.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

Beswicks car if I remember back in the late 70's early 80's a guy named Ray Bisic SP or something like that had his old SD car Silver Catalina 2 dr HT blue interior--- Raced at Union Grove WI he was a beer truck driver lived in Chicago or north suburbs of Chicago---FED 387

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

No big deal, I had one of those motors out of a wrecked LW car in my 57 Ford along with the aluminum T-10 4 speed. Me and a buddy bought the engine & trans for $600 off the owner who had no insurance on it. My buddy later changed to a hydraulic cam and put it in a new 67 F100 when he got home from the army {you just drill the plug out in the cam gallery}

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

There are guys who know all about all the popular Ford models used for drag racing. Some know about all the Mopar models. Others know about Olds models.

Well, ya'll get the picture. I know very little about any brand except Pontiac. And as anyone can tell, I'm not an expert on Pontiac. But, I have done some research & have accumulated quite a few Pontiac pics.

After lookin over this thread, it occurred to me that lots of guys here may know very little to almost nothing about a '63 421SD engine or any of the lightweight Pontiacs.

The 1st 2 pics below show the "Swiss Cheese" frame.

The next 3 show what I assume is a re-creation of a '63, with the hood scoop. I've read that those scoops were actually bought from Ford. They came on some Ford trucks. I remember seeing a few of 'em on Ford trucks, back in the day. I especially remember some F-750 dump trucks which had the scoops. This is a link to a Google search which shows several trucks with the scoops.

https://www.google.com/search?q=f-75...DNpqLVFSc5xFOM

Below are pics of the Royal Pontiac '63 B/FX class winner, & Arnie Beswick's A/FX '63.

The last pic shows a '63 which was running E/SA. So, you guys figure out what engine it was running.

Re: Why No 421 Super Duty in current NHRA Guide?
 

1963 Cat Ragtop
3833/313=12.25 for E/SA=12.00 class in 1965

Lumley & Shaw set the E/SA record at 13.89 in May 1965 at Amarillo.

It took me a while to figure out that the
389/313-6v
389/315-6v
389/318-6v
are all the same engine, just slightly different compression.