What about STOCK ?
 

The powers to be FINALLY recognize "delay" buttons....... So .....in 2008 there will be a"spec" (approved) button in Comp and Super Stock. What about the lowest of lowest, starter, beginning, drag race class, "STOCK". Or are we now the latest high tech electronics class?

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Makes you wonder. I guess NHRA would have to first recognize that there are many automatic racers using a button to release their cars rather than a footbrake type action.It is easier to leave off of the button, but in my opinion not legal,however since NHRA has not addressed it, maybe I am wrong about that. I bet that the same racers that think it is ok to have this slow button on their automatic stockers would squeal if stick guys could also leave with a button somehow. I think it would be logical to extend the spec button to stock as well.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Jim,
You know my opinion on this one. We have had discussions on this many times. I am with you 100%, buttons have no business in stock. The guys that use them should go to superstock or learn/remember how to footbrake.

Are you going to Martin this weekend?



My .02


Jeff Day

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

No buttons, no three steps for burnouts, no two steps for staging , just learn how to drive. Make Stock what it is ,STOCK. Have a nice day, sorry ED didn"t think you would mind me using your catch phrase.

Jim Marshall

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

I agree 100% ...maybe we should put this thread down in the S/SS part of the forum.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

This topic is as dead as any...I agree they need a spec button in stock. But everything else that has been said is a bit out there. I say give the stick guys electro-magnet switches, no big deal. What changes then, how will the automatic have an advantage then? What will be the complaint? I would guess (only guess) that 80% of clutch guys do not loose because an auto guy has a button. Stick losses are usually spin, parts breakage, or just plain inconsistancy. And I would love for some of you to tell Fletch, Zane, Biondo, Stillings, Bertozzi, that they need to LEARN how to footbrake! They will still win the the ones bitching will still loose. And stock will never be STOCK...As long as theres $3000 Headers, $5000 Heads, and $100000 stockers...If your taking away two-steps lets do away with line locks, msd ignition, disc brakes (unless factory) fuel cells, and give everyone a SPEC slick. Then no one will have anything to complain about! Buttons are here and they are NOT the downfall of this sport! Go ahead...Bash me!

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Stockracer..................Consider yourself Bashed.................

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Jim,
I couldn't agree more with you !!!!

Stockracer,
I think you are talking apples and nuts here...A wheely bar,MSD, Valvespring, doesn't give you an advantage on the tree ?? I don't think people are complaining about parts as much as they are the lights that are being cut...Yah, I know practice, practice, practice, and I also agree on the good drivers will still win most races..But, if the buttons don't give you an advantage, why do alot of people use them...For the same reason all the better drivers have moved to a faster car and the reason there is they wanted to spend more $$$$$ right...IT's an advantage,you get to see the first red and you are mostly chasing..They can afford to do it and good luck to them..I still say no-to- electronics(buttons-etc in stock) and I think if NHRA takes a VOTE of racers they will find out how many people dislike electronics !!!! Time will tell and it makes more work for them.............Just my two cents................. Dave...1033/stock(RV-455)

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Stock is the victim of trickle down effect. The hitters have comp cars they run is Superstock and superstock cars they run in stock. Small tires and dualplane manifold is the only thing stock about them. Take away the buttons and twosteps and you take away one of the tools that is IMPOSSIBLE to regulate. Footbrake only!!!!!!!!!

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Jim,
You're dead-on with a zero.

Stock "wannabe"racer,
You're nuts. Take those buttons out and those guys will win half as much. Ask these guys why they shy away from the $20,000 at Piedmont and the $50,000 at Bristol. FOOTBRAKE ONLY, Thats why. Yes they could do it but not as good without a button.


Dave, I need some RV-455.

Chip Johnson

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Did'nt mean to step on Zanes toes. He always comes to the 20K at Piedmont. In fact he was R/U a couple years ago.
Chip

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

I can be nameless because I talk crap about no one unless I use my real name...But thats no what this topic is about. I guess stock is easy to win in, thats why everybody has the wallys at home, and everybody chooses to race stock...ITS EASY...bull ****, probably one of the hardest classes out there. Buttons are easier to change I will agree, BUT its the same as anything else, you have to be good to make it work. I know a lot of guys that have tried a button and find it too hard to do so they go back to footbraking. Whats there excuse? I only brought up the point of msd and linelocks because everyone wants stock to be stock (or thier version of) If were goin to pick and choose no one will be happy. I DO think you will see a change, though, if you take buttons away in stock...but only for bout half a year, then the same people will still win! What about blocking, or people with 20/20 vision, or people who are just plain good? Lets get rid of all them too! Racing is not what it used to be and as soon as all the old guys realize its not always about goin fast and bustin nuckles, it will be a lot more enjoyable! Keep em commin!

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Amen....what he said......get rid of the bottons !
Bob Pagano

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

If you really want to level the playing field turn off the reaction timers and 60 foot clocks...That has done more to make mediocre drivers in to Kings if that information not available how could they adjust...100 years ago when Smedley was young you had that Seat of the pants reaction timer you knew when you were late....DD

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Stockracer writes:
>> I would love for some of you to tell Fletch, Zane, Biondo, Stillings, Bertozzi, that they need to LEARN how to footbrake!

Actually, I personally invited one to come to the $50K. When I told him it was Footbrake, he was like, "I don't know, I haven't footbraked in a long time." I don't believe that meant he couldn't -- just didn't feel like it. I was shocked to not see some of them there except Zane.

Many argue that two-steps are no advantage, so we should continue to allow them. I think the same argument supports getting rid of them. There's really no reason to keep them, in my opinion.

Polls on the subject don't mean a lot. NHRA used a poll as a backwards way to support their decision to eliminate deep staging. "The majority of the racers didn't want deep staging." Using that logic, could the "majority of the racers" vote out trucks? front drivers? fuel injected cars? two-steps? vote in transbrakes?

And how do drivers that advocate two steps feel about deep staging?

The guys that advocate two steps argue that getting rid of them would make as much sense as getting rid of tachs, MSD's, shifters, etc. Such a rationale working in the opposite direction -- would that mean they wouldn't care if transbrakes were allowed? 4-wheel line locks? "Well, no, that's totally different" That's right - EVERY component is a totally separate issue unto itself.

I do disagree with Chip -- Although they'll have to adapt, I think that the top guys will still win just as much.... which further indicates to me that there's no need to have two steps in the first place.

* (exception being stick cars, in all instances above.)

>> If you really want to level the playing field turn off the reaction timers and 60 foot clocks...

I hear that pop up every once in a while. Au contraire - the best drivers would shine even more without that information, because they already know where they're at to begin with. The drivers that are lost would become even more lost. The best drivers are consistent enough to tweak the car to go red and then back it down, while the rest of the field wanders all over the tree. You could take away ALL of the incrementals, and the top echelon driver is still going to nail you .040 on the tree, carry a dime, wheel you at the stripe, and leave you wondering what happened. Not to hurt anyone's feelings, but that's just the reality of it.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

For someone attempting to enter the world of Stock Elim, it is an added expense/headache, etc to have to worry about a button and the "electronics" that go with it. Stock should be just that: Stock. As for the individual who commented about getting rid of the Disc brakes, fuel cells, etc, the progress in Drag Racing is to go quicker and faster and these racers are doing just that deeming the need for improved safety in better brakes and fuel systems for examples. It doesn't help with the light but it does you a better feel that you can safely stop your car.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Chip,

How's the new car coming ? I need you to send me an e-mail,I have plenty of RV-455 on hand
or call me @ 757-810-1832...

Mike,
You are right on the buttons, why do we need them......... Dave...1033/stock(RV-455)

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Stock can soon be Super Pro on 9" tires. Get all the electronics out of the formula.
Casey Miles
248H

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

I've said it before and I always get burned but here goes. Do away with the shoe polish, this is supposed to be class racing not bracket racing. Run off the national record, have a CIC like comp. Reward the #1 qualifier and record setters. Its supposed to be a performance based eliminator. It used to be. Try it again. There a lot cheaper ways to bracket race. And do away with the electronics. Okay dialins let me have it.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

My post was directed to Lenny and NHRA. Now that you guys have "admitted" that adjustable buttons have delay capibilties, and since delay devices are not allowed in Stock Elim. Are adjustable buttons considered delay devices?
Since only approved buttons will be allowed in Comp. and SS in 2008. Will only approved, non- adjustable,(non - delay) buttons be allowed as two step buttons in Stock Elim.?
Why not take it one step further.....At the Top of the Food Chain, ie Fuel Classes,(lol)..... the forward motion of the car must be done by the drivers feet, ie - The Bernstein Terrible Towel Rule of the 80s." And by all indications, Two Steps aren't going any where." Why don't you guys approve a spec, NON- Adjustable button for Stock Elim.. Then, mandate that the button be mounted on the brake or clutch pedal. It's not a completely level playing field, but, it's a start.
Don't get me wrong, my vote is for no buttons whatsoever. No buttons is way too easy to tech, and eliminates 80-90% chance of cheating. And why would we ever make it that easy.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

something I find funny is,,, about a year or so ago,,,I was blasting the buttons in stock and the way they were used and why racers were favoring A-D cars and also the decline of slow cars,,,,IMO, the true essence of what stock is supposed to be about,,,,,its about the guy, out in his garage, building his own parts, cause they dont make stuff for chevettes,,,,,,,,,not the "store bought stocker" were you give some shop about 60k and you pick it up back from the western swing.....It was the majoritys opinion that I shoudl just shut up and race,,,,WOW,,,what a difference a year or so makes after seeing this stuff used correctly!!!

now Im the type of person that ,,,if I cant be competitive,,,Im not going to play,,,,,,and the fact is,,I cant compete with the 2 steps and buttons.....I dont intend to quit racing locally and they just dont allow any electronics,,,,,,,so I quit racing stock,,,just that simple.......there are exceptions to the rule such as Myron,,,Beard and a few others,,,but they are very few.......

I see after a year or so,,finally some of you understand just how and why they are using 2 steps and buttons...and also understand why most are wanting to go at least D or quicker,,,,,,It takes that to "pro tree race" a stocker,,,,,,,,,,so now ,,"it the buttons and 2 steps gotta go",,,,,,,well good for you guys,,,,It time to put nhra/ Ihra on the hot seat

Also,,if i understand the rest of the rules,,,,,isnt anything Illegal in a Superstocker also Illegal in a Stocker,,,,,,,do not the rules progress from illegal to legal the more of advanced class you run????

I had addressed this issue the the powers that be in both organizations 2 years ago and both were concerned but didnt know at that time exactly what was going to take place.....Ihra sealed the buttons but IMO,,that isnt enough......

Like chip,,,to my surprise,,there wasnt any of the killer guys at the 50k,,,,,excluding Zane and a few footbraker greats,,,,,I mean 10k, 50k and 10k for $675 is alot to pass up .....I really thought more of the stocker guys would show for this kind of money,,,but as stated before "no buttons" was the rule

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

I may be stupid but lets go one step farther.

Buttons------ Transbrake/linelocks??????????????

My interpetation is button o.k. as long as it's hooked to 2-step only.

How many people have it hooked to something else?

How do you police it????????

Dave; New car is coming along. It looks great and we've been testing. Needs a little more e.t. before we race it though. Thanks
Chip

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Chip...Nice to see that you know what the best BLACKSTREAK REMOVER is!!! Good Luck with the new car!

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

tgriffith;

[ why racers were favoring A-D cars and also the decline of slow cars,,,,IMO, the true essence of what stock is supposed to be about,,,,,its about the guy, out in his garage, building his own parts, cause they dont make stuff for chevettes,,,,,,,,,not the "store bought stocker" were you give some shop about 60k and you pick it up back from the western swing.

The true essence of stock? How about Tom Gould massaging a Corviar for 41 years that no one makes anything for and getting it from the 18's into the 14's all within the strict limits of the stock elim. rules. Or Steve Pohill doing the same (into the 15's) with the Escort he used to deliver pizza's with as a teenager (the story that I heard).

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Jim,
You sure did start a hot topic here!


Stockracer,
When I said they should learn, I also said remember how to footbrake. Most of these guys started out with their feet. They just went to the button to win more.
The majority of us against buttons in stock aren't crying and calling those hitters cheaters at all. They are obviously good drivers with great equipment and a lot of experience. However, I just believe that the majority of those big name hitters wouldn't be winning 100,000 plus per year if they had to footbrake. Have you ever raced both ways? If so, you would know that it is a lot easier to tune in your reaction times with a adjustable button or two step than it is changing your stage RPM to adjust your lights with your feet. (I have, and I know there is an advantage to the button. I don't use it in my stocker, because I am against them. I used one in a bracket car that I drove for a little while) When we only get two hits at a national event, the button cars can more easily adjust, therefor giving them an advantage. It is impossible for a footbrake racer to stage exactly the same RPM each time, which leads to slightly inconsistent reaction times.

By the way, we all aren't losers either. I have won over $100,000 with my feet. It has just taken me 13 years instead of one.


Jeff Day

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Jeff Day...I have reced both forms..I do prefer the button. I am curious how many of you aginst the button have used one? Or tested one...Ive used instant, moroso .01, moroso .03, biondo .05, and the AX .4....The best is probably the moroso .03...Most consistant. But at the most I have .03 adjustability. If im .060 with it, run it all the way up then Im .030, Now we have to change rpm, then carb settings because the higher the rpms the less fuel commin off the chip. The difference between footbraking and a button is position of your right foot. Thats it. Still got the brake pedal mashed to the floor.

Polhill...Though I have never met you or raced with you (opposite ends of the country) I respect you for your accomplishments in a fwd stick car. And im sorry that my idea for changing stock dosent fit your car...guess you will have to change. Thats what everyone wants right...THEIR idea of stock.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Two steps in stock should be used only as a rpm limiting device as they are in stick cars. They should not be used as a means to leave the starting line. Anyone that has ever played with a practice tree knows it's easier to have cosistently good lights letting go of a button than using a foot control. I have heard from 2 sources that there is consideration for next year of having any 2 step button in automatic cars in stock mounted only on the brake pedal. Like Jim I think 2 steps should not be legal for automatic cars in stock because without them you would eliminate most of the ways to cheat on the starting line. One other thing that I feel is that you would have more different winners if stock was a footbrake class only.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Take deepstaging away....same drivers still win.
Take Buttons away, same drivers still win, probably more so. A button may make a good driver better but it also makes a bad driver decent..... kind of like a delay box, it somewhat evens it up a little bit.

Chip, Beard etc, you guys should realize best that most of the best stock racers (bertozzi, biondo, fletcher) grew up and dominated footbraking. Look at some of the archives at the local tracks and look at some of the reaction times of these guys going off the footbrake.

The fact is those big footbrake races (with buybacks) are more rounds and less money to win (after splits) than winning a national event. Even the BIGESST footbrake race EVER which took place on sunday which was won by Scotty Richardson, paid him $22,000 after the splits while on the same day Peter Biondo and Brad Plourd were winnning a national event worth $16,000 in california going off the same bottom yellow. Now take the double buyback 10k or 20k footbrake races which end up going 9 or 10 rounds and only paying 8k to 12k after splits and you do the math.

I am not taking anything away from the footbrake races as they are great but after you do the math and splits, they aren't as worth going to as the flyers show.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Boo, the problem I have with the buttons and 2 steps is that it makes a larger gap between the faster cars and slower cars on the competitive side of adjustability on RT`s....and true,,,same drivers will probably win and thats ok,,,rite now,,more shots on the tree is so important at the national level or any level,,,and stock has become a pro tree race,,,, In all other motorsports, rules are put in place to keep things on a level playing field and Ihra/Nhra has overlooked this issue for a while in stock

as far as Richardson or any other racer, as far as the 50k ,,,,the purse was paid,,,what drivers tend to do with there share isnt part of the program,,,,anyone of the final 8 could have said "no" and that would have been done,,,they chose to make it profitable for the final 8,,,,which is something you dont see in stock,,,,everyone looses that isnt in the finals,,,and Ive been to a few that even the R-ups just got even for the weekend...there was one round of buybacks and thats it

I may be wrong,, unless he worked a deal in the finals with luke,,,but I thought it was 30k to the winner,,,,Im rather sure him and luke are good friends so they might have worked a deal in the finals....I also do know for a FACT that a few had gotten entrys and when it was determined that under no circumstance would buttons be allowed AND tech was going to be tough,,,either sold or got refunds,,,,maybe a scheduling conflict or who knows,,,but what remains a fact is the best non electronic race in history took place and alot of big names wasnt there.....

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

if im remembering correctly,,,in the 50k ,,the deal at 8 was ,,,,,1/4`s got 2k plus round money,,,,,semi`s got 3k plus round money ,,,r-up got 18k and winner got 30k,,,,,,,, again,,Im rather sure that was the deal at 8,,,never did ask scotty the deal in the finals,,,,,alot of times,,racers like to keep that personal,,,

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

How about getting rid of the "secret" timers inside of the MSD and transmissions? A spec MSD would do more to level the field than anything else.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Griffith...Great Idea, really, lets go pro tree! Stick guys can feel like pro stock racers...And bring back deepstaging. Really if a driver is any good all you look at is the bottom bulb and react. Unless you anticipate, which is very inconsistant. I would LOVE to see a pro tree! Bring back deep staging for the slower cars...every body wins! And the adjustability will always be better with a faster car button or no button...

Mr. Beard...When I made my first post I really expected that you would be the first on to get on here and completly rip me, But thank you for speaking your opinion in a decent way. I realize everyone has a different opinion and I just consider this constructive critisim for the class.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

pro tree??? its already here,,,just most of stock dont have a clue

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Back in the day, there was a track called New York National, they had a get ready light then, one amber then green. The big hitters were Sam Biondo and Phil Montief along with a small group of others. They knew to deep stage before anyone else thought about it. This was before reation timers and 60' clocks. You could always find either of them in the final. So, deep staging wouldn't be a bad idea with a pro tree.
The racer thinking out of the box would still be winning! I beleive that Sam Biondo was one of the racers thinking out of the box and now I think that Peter is following in his footsteps. Peter will still win his share of races, but it would even up the playing field. The faster car would be at a disadvantage with full blinders and pro tree. We had a race at Moroso, the Super pro cars were allowed to use their delay boxes, none of them could hit the tree because of the distraction of the other car leaving.
Casey Miles
248H

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

Instead of everyone complaining here, send a note to Len directly, that you don't want buttons in stock PERIOD. A written letter is better. Some of us stick racers did this early this year.

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

if there is a simple way i think it would be nice if stock became a "foot break" only class,sure the good racers would still win,but maybe we could see a little more people winning...or maybe less who knows...but still there would a bigger window to win i think...would be harder to "flashrace"...frankly i am getting a little bored of that it takes .020 or better the whole way to win races nowdays...am i the only one getting bored with that?more machine than people....

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

I say allow Delay boxes and transbrakes or Make it FOOTBRAKE ONLY NO BUTTONS AT ALL.

Chip Johnson

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

"""020 or better the whole way to win races nowdays"""

a year or so ago,,,I told you guys that this was going to happen,,,,I even posted average RTs of what I could find,,I think the years of 1999,2000,,,,2001 and 2002 of selected races and then the average RT`s of 2005 and beginning of 2006,,,,,,,If I can find that topic,,I `ll repost it,,,,,,,,I think I deleted all my post because 99% of racers had the opinion that I was crying and need to shut up and learn how to race......the results I found were staggering,,,,,that in just a year,,,most all of the stock professionals had suddenly learn how to trim a consistent .03 off their RT`s in a national event setting,,,,,,,,,,and most of these guys doing so had other pro tree cars, whether it was a super car of some type or superstocker.........one of the most alarming things I found was the disappearance of slow index cars........now this typf of increase in RT pointed to a different method of racing,,,either everyone is cheating (which I dont believe in one second) or everyone is moving to faster cars to "pro tree race",,,,,,,,,,sure enough,,,thats what it is

This is just an opinion,,what you will soon see in the near future,, everyone that races seriously in stock,,,more heads up races because even as we speak,,,racers that dont have A- E cars are selling what they do have and finding them so they can be competitive.......Ive noticed that on here and other sites,,more slower cars are finding their way on the market at a lower price

If steps arent taken to stop this spending,,,it will be nearly impossible to be competitive without spending 75k for a stocker...I really believe that the elimination of the 2steps and button is a step in the rite direction ....time will tell I guess

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

one other thing,,,,,It is up to the majority to change the rules,,,,Nhra/Ihra isnt interested in making changes that would help a w/sa pinto or a chevette,,(LOL) but this has a trickle down effect because it would also help the I/sa and slower cars also

Re: What about STOCK ?
 

While spending all this time on the starting system, why not finally....finally...fix the red light inequality in handicap racing. It is downright ignorant to continue this "first" red light thing.

Imbrogno, do the right thing and institute the "worst" red light. You know it's the right thing to do. This thing of some drivers not having to take a shot at the tree is flat wrong. If anyone tells you "we've done it that way from day one", then tell them "...and we've been doing it wrong all that time, too."

It is not required you take a vote. It is not even necessary that you tell anyone when you do it. Just do it.

Or, if you won't change to a "worst" red light system, then be consistent and change the finish line to a "first" breakout system. That way, the lunacy would be the same at both ends of the track.