Manual trans only?
 

In an older combo, like my aging fleet of antique iron, some engine combos came with a manual trans only requirement in the Tech Bulletins. I need to update my tech bulletins, but does that stipulation still exist? Question revolves around a 68 Chevelle with a 327/325 horse engine in Stock . Has that manual trans rule been deleted?

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Nope.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Re: Manual trans only?
 

You should ask NHRA since they allowed the 1967 Ford Fairline R-Code 427-425HP combination to run an automatic. All the R-Code Fairline's were stick, 4-speed cars only.
When I asked NHRA many years ago, I was informed they were allowed to run an automatic because it was available in the other models of the car.
Under this premise, I believe they should allow you run an auto, the same should apply to the 1969/1970 Mustang Boss 302 and the 1971 Boss 351.
What's your opinion Billy Nees? :rolleyes::D

Re: Manual trans only?
 

I know that the 396/375 option was 4 speed only in its factory incarnation,but they seem to be legal with automatics, I was wondering if it was a rule change. I was thinking about the 327/325 engine, same as the Corvette 350 horse version. That thing would be legal with a 4 speed in my 3900 pound Malibu wagon. Puts a new emphasis on the word 'break' in the term 'weight break'.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

The 327-325 is a stick only combo in the 68 Chevelle and Nova.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Thunderbolt was only available with 4 speed (I believe). Now runs Stock with automatic??

Re: Manual trans only?
 

1967 Fairline R-Code; Thunderbolt is a 1964 car.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Bob,you would know! I guess it's not an across the board rule. Incidentally, I read that around 20 of the original Thunderbolts had the big Lincoln cast iron 3 speed automatics that were out there prior to the C-6. Must have really enhanced overall vehicle weight.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

I have always read that more Thunderbolts had automatics than four speeds. Most of them were switched over to four speeds pretty fast I would guess. Jody will wander in here and set it right soon I guess.

Roland

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Do you have documentation to prove this ?

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Yep you are correct!!!

Re: Manual trans only?
 

That's right, IIRC MORE than half of the 1964 Thunderbolts came with the HX Lincoln auto trans, but many or most were swapped back to a 4speed. About half of the 63-64 Lightweight Galaxies (LWG, 427 LoRiser in 63, 427 HiRiser in 64) came with the Lincoln HX auto trans. Some of these were kept and did well in AA/SA.


So for 63-64, the Thunderbolt and LWG came with autos so NHRA accepts it. But there were less than 400 of those cars if you count them all. Not really "production" and I don't think you could order and get one unless you knew somebody and were a racer. But in spite of that, NHRA lets ANY 427 Galaxie run an auto trans, even though they didn't come that way in regular production cars (ie steel Galaxies) in 64-64.


We just had a big debate about this on fordfe.com and the consensus is that these cars (Thunderbolts and 63-64 LWG) were the ONLY time the solid-lifter 427 came with an auto trans.

As far as 65-up cars, and the 66-67 Fairlane/Comets:
The consensus though is that Ford did build 2 prototype 67 Fairlane 427 auto cars. But more importantly, Ford apparently LISTED the auto trans but never built any that way, and that maybe why NHRA accepts it.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...+%28UPDATED%29


http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...8/427+Fairlane

I don't think the Boss 302 or Boss 351 were ever even LISTED with the auto-trans (maybe because smog standards had begun?) so NHRA would not accept them.


That's the key I think - what did the manufacturer LIST in the paperwork they gave to NHRA? It doesn't mean they had to make or sell any of them. Usually. It confuses me too.


As far as the 396/L78, NHRA lists it as legal with auto trans for the 68 Nova, but not the 68 Chevelle or 68 Camaro. Go figure.


I would be surprised if the 327/275 was a manual only combo, that sounds strange but I will look, NHRA has all that stuff on line you know.


Dwight, Greg at al, sorry I was typing too late at night, and my photographic memory (NOT) remembered 325 and 275 as the same thing, DUH.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

April 1968 issue of Car Life tested a 68 Chevelle 327/275 powerglide, just an ordinary grocery getter, so I cant see how NHRA would not allow it. I have three 327/275 road tests in my database, all three are auto trans.


Those NHRA Excel sheets are not error free for sure, they have both typos, cut&paste errors on the weights, and just plain history errors. Maybe bring it to their attention and they will change it or defend it!


OOPS once again I was typing too late at night, I had 275hp in my tired eyes instead of 325hp. All the road tests I have on the L79 are 4speed only, nothing I can add there. So unless Chevy submitted some specific documents to NHRA that said "also offered with automatic" as Ford apparently did with the 66-67 Fairlane/Comet, I can see why NHRA would not allow it.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Yes I do.
I have a reprint of the Ford Total Performance manual which shows the W and R-Code package details.

It shows the W and R-Code car with a Top Loader. It also shows the R-Code, with a fiberglass hood with scoop. Both cars were equipped with a 2.32 1st gear Top Loader from the factory.
No W or R-Code cars with an automatic.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Yup, your correct sir!! More autos than sticks in the 1964 Thunderbolts. DST did offer a auto to stick conversion kit because those big heavy Lincoln transmissions sucked pretty bad....

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Then your documentations are wrong....

Re: Manual trans only?
 

SSDiv6 - While a Ford Performance Manual is a noteworthy publication, it hardly satisfies NHRA's nor history's requirement for documentation. The documentation that NHRA Tech has available and that is used as their reference includes what was submitted by the manufacturers to NHRA via request and via "official" publications from the manufacturers.

While I am not sure about the 1966 year model, the 1967 solid lifter 427 cars have been raced with automatic transmissions since their introduction. It just so happens that the collective social mentality of the racer group who campaigned them was predominantly ruled by people with stick shift preference, as was the majority of Stock and Super Stock racing during the 1960s and 1970s, so you do not see many. Dick Simon started racing a 1967 Fairlane 500 XL convertible with a 427-410 engine and automatic transmission in1973 and the amount of research that went into the verification of that combination for NHRA competition was extensive. Lots of people questioned the legality of that car over a period of years, even into the 1980s, yet NHRA substantiated its legality time and again. Supposedly, Dick's car was an assembly line car that was ordered as regular production offerings and Dick purchased the car from the original owner.

Some of the confusion happens due to the statement that DeuceCoupe made that "Ford apparently LISTED the auto trans but never built any that way, and that maybe why NHRA accepts it." If you look at the Class Guide in all the manufacturers for the pre-1967 cars, you will see legal combinations available that the manufacturers likely never built. It is the requirement that allowed Richard Charbonneau to race the 427 Fairlane station wagon, the many Max Wedge station wagons and possibly other oddball cars that I am not familiar with. Part of the reality of such combinations is that until the 1970s, there were few "purpose built" Stock Eliminator race cars, so 99% of the cars that showed up to race were assembly line combinations and few questioned the legality of them, especially when they were in the Class Guide. The Tri-Five Sedan Deliveries and four-speed cars muddied the waters for us all, however, and it has been a fight to maintain accuracy ever since.


DeuceCoupe - The 327-275 equipped Chevelles are not the same animal as the 327-325 engines. It's like comparing a 396-325 with a 396-375. Also, the 1968 Chevelle 396-375 is listed with an automatic transmission, whether it was ever available or not.

During the 1960s and up into the 1970s, GM and Ford had little reason to develop high performance automatic transmissions, since enough market demand was not there. Also, warranties and service were always issues for the high performance combinations so they limited the availability of automatic combinations with their hot rod engines. MoPar developed their automatic transmissions hot rod combinations mostly for drag racing and the success there carried over to their production cars. But, looking at their production cars on the street, there were no radical spec’ed high performance engines built for until the late 1960s. But even then, the Street Hemi had mild drivability characteristics compared to a rowdy high-cammed small block Chevy. Chevy's (and other GM products) high performance engines were directed to the street hot rodder, however, and the engineering had to be directed toward what their dealers and customers would be able to deal with. Long duration cams, finicky carburetors and such did not lend themselves to customer satisfaction in a daily driver basis with the crummy automatic transmissions they had. So one way to limit the customer base and reduce the potential complaints was to make those engines available only with manual transmissions. They didn’t want Joe Average to be lured into thinking that buying a car with an engine that required an enthusiast’s level of attention would be okay with the wife if it had an automatic transmission. That practice goes way back into the 1950s Corvette engines and continued for a long time. Ford tended to follow the same thinking, except for rare considerations, so the Boss 302, Boss 351, 289-271, etc. were manual transmission engines only.

So, to consider that the 327-325 or the 327-350 (same engine, different carb) was ever available with an automatic transmission does not fit the historical practice of GM. The only concession of those engines was that they had hydraulic lifters, which was a first for a high performance Chevrolet, but not the automatic transmission.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Somewhere we got a little off here.I was originally talking about the fairly rare 327/325 horse engine. That differed from the rest of them by having 11.00 or so to 1 compression with domed forged pistons, the #151 hydraulic camshaft, 2.02/1.600 valves,and an iron intake with a Quadrajet. The 275 had flat top pistons, 1.94 intakes,1.500 exhausts, a smaller cam and around 10.00 to one compression. It came in the entire product line. Most of them were in full sized cars,such as Grandma's barge 9 passenger Impala wagons. The 250 horse 327 was the same short block and intake and carb, but with small intake low compression heads. The 275 was available with an automatic all day long. The 250 horse,for whatever reason, only came in Chevelles,Impala's,etc. and 1/2 ton pickup trucks. Might have been a fun class race motor in a Camaro or Nova!

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Greg, the '68 327-325's (RPO L79) were, as correctly stated, never available with an automatic. And while NHRA has taken some liberties by allowing autos in some combos, this one has remained a 'stick only' in the NHRA Classification guide.

'68 L79 production figures:
-Chevelle: 4082
-Chevy II: 1274
-Corvette: 9440

Oddly, the '68 L79 in the Corvette was rated at 350 hp while the same engine in the Nova and Chevelle was at 325 hp. All '68 L79's used a Quadrajet, regardess of body style.

For what it's worth...... -Al

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Sorry for getting off track here. You are right and I am wrong...never too old to learn something. In 1964, Thunderbolt produced 51 automatics and 49 4 speeds.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

This is a great thread !

Re: Manual trans only?
 

No prob sir!!

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Ford, once calling itself the Ford Family of Fine Cars, had a problem of parts interchangeability among engine families, trans groupings, and the like that knew no bounds, going all the way back to the 1950's.About the only fairly standardized unit was the 9 inch rear end, going all the way back.You Fordophiles would know way more about all this that I do, but within engine families, there are enough variations to drive you nuts. Doing an engine for my brother's 64 Falcon Sprint was a disaster. He made the classic mistake of putting an open plenum hi rise intake on his 260 with a big Holley, which was some improvement over the 2 barrel, but that carb was way too big for that motor. Add to that, a screw dropped out of the throttle body to the float bowl, and the engine ate the screw, some pistons, and cracked a cylinder wall. We decided to rebuild the motor, so out it came. He located a 289 block, missing one main cap, pretty cheaply. No cracks, it cleaned up at .030", but we needed to find a main cap and get it line bored and honed. More money. The cheap block wasn't so cheap. We used the 260 crank and rods, flat top 289 pistons, and had that balanced. I don't know what all had to come off the pistons, but I don't remember that being a problem. I assembled the short block, he got some 289 heads, and a cam,lifter and whatever else kit. I did the heads at school, took them home, we bolted the whole thing together and I installed the engine. When I put the steel stamped plate on the back of the block, lo and behold, wrong bolt pattern. He got a Lakewood scatter shield, block plate and all, I installed that. We couldn't have used a 66 Fairlane bell housing because the factory trans was a top loader, we had an iron BW T-10. That would have fit the block,but not the trans, hence the scatter shield. I got it all together, installed the starter, and upon attempting to start it, it cranked, but made a nasty,nasty noise while spinning the motor.Seemed that the 164 or so toothed Falcon 260 flywheel was about 4 teeth too small, a '66 Fairlane 289 4 speed flywheel was the right thing. Out came the trans(again),off came the scattershield, off came the flywheel, on went the new slightly larger unit, and we didn't get too far before we learned the Falcon pressure plate didn't bolt to the Fairlane flywheel. Too small. Off to the clutch shop, got the correct pressure plate, but had to use the slightly smaller Falcon clutch disc. T-10 and Top Loader had a different spline. Got this whole mess together, finished final assembly on everything, actually drove the Falcon,timed and adjusted everything,and when we were sitting at a signal, it was in first gear, I had my foot on the clutch, suddenly the clutch pedal hit the floor as I felt something break,and the car lurched forward,killing the engine. Fortunately, no one in front of us. The Z bar from the frame to the block broke. Got the car home, he went to the Ford dealer again, ordered a new Z bar. When I looked at it, I could see how it broke. It was pretty light duty. We took it to a welding shop, the guy there gusseted it, in it went, the Falcon was working!!! It was a real test of our patience, fortunately parts cost a lot less then than they do now. That was a lesson on engine rebuilding and adaptability you didn't find in a college auto shop manual. He should have bought a 66 Nova 283 4 speed instead of that Falcon Sprint.Hindsight,again,to the rescue,just not in time.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Greg to further derail your thread!!

The 82 through 85 Mustang GT 5.0 cars were also stick only. Unless they had a CFI (Fords attempt at TBI), that engine combo was auto. A few years ago when the 82 5.0 was "enhanced with a lower HP" the classification guide did not state manual only. A few of these 82 Mustang GT's with an auto were built and in competition until the guide was clarified on the manual only. It would be unfortunate for a combo to suddenly be made illegal with the expense of a trans change. But if it was never a factory option, it would be like running the wrong carb, intake or head. Everyone that class races has an agenda and that is to push the rules. The clarification and getting a letter for a "paper car" is what it turns into.

Sean

Re: Manual trans only?
 

I guess the purpose behind the story regarding my brothers' 64 Falcon Sprint was to call attention to the nightmare that can ensue when converting stuff over, even though we did a simple engine rebuild that led to one thing after another. Had he had a Nova or a Chenille, the conversion to a 4 speed would have been far simpler. The thought in my mind was to try to imagine the nightmare of converting a '64 Fairlane from the big Lincoln trans to a 4 speed. FE stick parts were definitely around, but when did the top loader come out? Was a factory Thunderbolt 4 speed a T-10? That swap could have been a real problem.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

The 1972 351C High Output (low compression Boss 351) engine was stick shift only from Ford, IIRC I've seen a few racing with automatics.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

My time spent working in a machine/engine shop easily confirms the Ford engine family parts issues stories...

I recall one attempted dyno session of a CJ 428 and the engine was literally trying to jump off the dyno stand !

The engines owner brought the wrong flywheel is all I can recall........don't recall the details on the parts issue....

Ford engines always seemed to create issues.....

Well we were GM racers.....not much on Fords....

My son-in-law has an original '66 Mustang 260 2 barrel carb, 4speed......
It sat for years and I had to swap parts from 2 starters to make one fit in there.

After freeing up the stuck carb and checking a few things, it started and ran so smooth you could balance a nickel on the intake.......ran flawless...

Re: Manual trans only?
 

I was told many years ago that parts from a Green Ford wouldn't work on a Blue Ford and vice versa.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

Interesting, it appears that no Chevys were externally balanced?
All Chevys used the same diameter flywheel?
All Chevys used the same starters?
Funny, I have had person experiances with all these, and more. Like:
Some chevy blocks are missing motor mount bolt holes, starter mounting holes,threaded holes in the ends of the cylinder heads for bolting up incidentals, like alternators, no oil filter vs canister oil filter, vs spin on oil filter, 3 different valve cover bolt patterns, no threaded hole for securing the crank damper,long vs short water pumps, left and right side dipsticks, 2 piece and 1 piece rear main seals, different thickness front oil pan seals, etc. Just like the Fords, it seems that Chevy made a few running changes during its lifespan. As for how much easier it would have been to convert a 66 283 Chevy Nova from auto to 4 speed, hope that you have one of the special Chevy II only blocks and bellhousings to make use of the factory clutch linkage fit properly!
Seems that doing your homework when it comes to mixing and matching engine and car parts is a good idea, whether you are working on a Ford OR a Chevy!:D

Re: Manual trans only?
 

There used to be a green '67 427/425 '67 Fairlane that raced at Havana back in the '80s. It was an automatic car, supposedly from the factory. Buddy of mine who is a huge Ford guy questioned whether it was "real" or not because the 427/425 was never released with an auto. There were a pair of brothers there who raced a gold Mustang (Doubet?) who swore the car was legit and they knew the dealership it came from.

I just always thought it was a really cool car.

Re: Manual trans only?
 

I always try to read ahead a bit before picking up a wrench. It beats going off only half loaded every time. The learning experience that Falcon provided was a study in figuring out that it wasn't what we knew that slowed us down, it was what we DIDN'T know. Sort of a lesson about life itself.