Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

I think Jon is spot with this editorial. Check it out.

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...-for-pro-stock

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

I agree Mike, spot on.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Sounds pretty interesting, but I would have it all on one day, like the Hemi Challenge, so the fan of these cars can see the whole eliminations on one day.
I go to Indy on Friday just to see the AH cars, and I'm able to see all of the Challenge that day. I enjoy the Factory Stock also, but it's not my main thing, but if it was, I would want to see it all at once, without having to spend 4 days.
I'm old enough to remember the start of Pro Stock, and Factory Stock does seem to be the second coming of that show. Put them in the spotlight.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

While we can appreciate the factory stock plug, I can't say this article does us any favors. I'm not crazy about any writer advocating the demise of any category, period. Who is he to advocate that millions of dollars and cubic hours of effort of folks who's passion is pro stock just "go away" after 2018?
Be careful when you say "dead on, Jon". Maybe in a few years he will be out of love with factory stock and will write an article how you all need to go away and then claim the "fill in the blank: class" is the answer to all of nhra's woes and "what the fans want".

And The Biggest issue I have with the article is this quote: "Never mind the fact that drag racing is about the fans and not the competitors." ....... Completely, 180 degrees, dead wrong for what is in fact supposed to be the true mission of nhra.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

I agree,Pro Stock can not even make a field of 16 race cars.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Interesting piece. If it does replace pro stock how much will the cost go up?

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Interesting perspective by the author.

I have felt for some time that NHRA could make PS more realistic and bridge the gap between the current Pro Stock and Super Stock by:

* make the car bodies have the same dimensions as factory production cars.
* Super Stock legal tires.
* The engine would be based on the same architecture as production engines but the racers could poke and stroke them to a certain max cu.in.
* a Limit on supercharger specs ( larger of course than the current SS blowers)

Basically it would be an enhanced version of Super Stock very much like it was in 1970

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

x2

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

the current crop of factory stock superstars aint gonna be to happy when all the guys with too much money get their final hosing from nhra and go spend whatever time and money it takes to pee in their pool

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Unfortunately, Mr. Asher presents a myopic view with regard to the current fan base associated with NHRA events.

There won't be twenty people that attend to watch Factory Stock when assigned a premier role at future events.

The relationship of vehicle make or model and attendee is fall less incumbent on a passion for performance automobiles and much more so a quest for an entertainment spectacle and the commensurate value proposition.

Easy to determine. Promote extensively and hold a Factory Stock event and see who turns out.

I'm not sure about the majority of Stock and Super Stock racers, but I'm certainly not going. I don't watch them now.

Only one sure way to make this form of racing exciting and fill seats to any reasonable level as it relates to Stock, Super Stock and Factory Stock - open the parimutuel window!

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

My 2 cents.
The N.H.R.A. is clueless on many levels.
Pro Stock was relevant from 1970 until 2000, but now has little appeal.
Factory Stock is the future because these are cars you can purchase at any dealership.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

If there is to be any hope, even a glimmer, that the interest in the new performance vehicles vis-a-vis Factory Stock exists, then a concerted and significant effort must be undertaken by the three manufacturers that promotes awareness, recognition, interest and ultimately, demand for this spectrum of motorsports.

Reintroduce the dealership Performance Clinics that were reasonably popular years ago and that made the effort to connect factory available high performance vehicles with drag racing and illustrated well-engineered and established methods of relatively easily improving each platforms performance. Cultivate and nurture the performance car/drag racing association by brand.

It will require a great deal of effort, one that I'm not certain any manufacturer, regardless of how significant their efforts to market these car appear, will exert.

Finally, give away Divisional event tickets. Create decals, posters, apparel and create enthusiasm. Build brand allegiance and restore a healthy competition against competing brands.

Encourage potential customers to see their performance vehicle of choice in action and build a bond between owner, car and drag racing motorsports.

Keep in mind, it's a different era.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

It is very interesting that this article is brought to the forefront in the S/SS section. Ever watch the stands at a divisional meet or national event when S/SS race? For the divisional which speaks with more clarity than a national event,. some wives and girl fiends, volunteer pit helpers an friends are the only ones in the stands.Do you see all the double stackers that show up for S/SS? Pretty crazy for the lousy payouts. A FS car ain't cheap. Do you think that the FS cars becoming Pro/FS will help the sportsman racer? Isn't racing supposed to be a show? Horse, bike and all the various permutations of all motors ports is about the fans coming out to see racers race.If you pull the FS and AH cars out, what does S/SS have to show? To work on your car and get it in the trailer, get to the event and spend 1-4 days at an event that doesn't draw enough spectators that out number the number of people in the pits is that death bell. Someone here, started to do something. Not sure if it was Jack Matyas, got a bunch of teens to show up at the track and they got to see the cars up front and got a T-shirt and more personal face time with racers that they would at a National event with the pro's. That's action. I watched when a dad, grandfather and son stopped by in the pits to look at the cars. The father stopped to talk to me and I could see his 9 year old son looking apprehensive at what was going on to the pits. I walked up to the boy and asked him if he wanted a close up look at my car. Before he knew what happened, he was in the car with the helmet on and his dad was taking pics. They kept coming back after each round just to talk. This class racing isn't going to last unless we as racers, promote the sport ourselves. Don't look to NHRA to do anything constructive. If a bunch of reckless street racers can gain national attention, what will it take to get sportsman racers to do the same thing(popularity)? Is NMCA the answer? Ground roots class racer wave? Save the sport. Racer independence. Patriotic?

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Not a chance that any of these arcane suggestions would have a positive impact on either appeal or attendance.


There is virtually no one among the average NHRA fan base that would have any interest in, and in many cases, any knowledge of, the technical merits associated with these suggested limitations and the resultant competition parameters.


These intrinsic and esoteric proposals are certainly at odds with what is on display at each NHRA event. As routinely mentioned, look at the stands and realistically comprehend who attends events to watch these rules confined and clearly weaker performing eliminators.







You have to get people there. The effort to create enthusiasm and interest must be created externally and then develop intrinsically.



Class racing will last. No one outside of racers cares anything about it nor have they for decades. The racers will continue to show up, entertain and enjoy themselves and spend a great deal of money that is certainly necessary for event operating costs. That is, unless the sanction can convince and consistently rely upon a group of 60-100 11.90 cars to attend and then Stock is over with.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Certianly all valid points.... Here are a few more things to think about:
The factory cars seem to have a little traction with the fans, manufacturers, and NHRA but the direction is uncertain. What is it that will make the direction clear? There needs to be several changes that will help. I would park all of the cars together, similar to how the the Copo's are parked at Indy. The performance is an issue. The cars need to run in the 7's@170. They can easily do this with reducing the weight to 3,400 lbs and allowing a 10.5 inch tire(I know there goes the stock class). The tire will easily fit under the wheel well of the second generation Copo's and CJ's. Selling a 7 second 170 mph factory production car should be the foundation of the marketing. These cars need to have their own class. Throwing the cars that don't qualify back into stock eliminator doesn't make anyone happy. They need to qualify separately, it's difficult to be the first ones down the track Thursday morning and set the field by noon, then wait until 3:00 Saturday to race first round. I would not change the body or engine rules at all. There are several back halved factory cars that have run in the 7.70/7.80 range that don't get much attention. The backhalved cars look more like race cars then factory cars. I bet that all parties involved come up with a plan that will work better than what exists. It will look something like pro mod, pro stock, pro stock bike, nitro Harley, factory cars, etc rotating a smaller 8-12 race schedule at different national events. As for "rich people" coming into the factory class and ruining it, I don't understand that? It's already plenty expensive and there are plenty of smart people involved. Think about the fact that Barton, Holbrook, Patterson/Elite, Stanfield and more are already involved! I hope the class becomes relevant and I will do everything I can to support it. Just my two cents.....

Happy July 4th!
S.Bell

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

The old Top Stock rules would work here as they did then. Time trials 2 or Friday, 1 Sat Morn and eliminations Sat till complete. All run, and fast loser comes back on a bye. There are no byes unless first round has one. 10.5 tires. It was a lot of fun and had good spectator attention. Pro Tree (.5) An extra day for rain or certification.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Indeed times are changing and it was said in this thread that NHRA was without clues as to what was going on.....Pretty good assessment.

The issue of Factory Stock is a potential flagship for the factories not for NHRA's edification. The factories are aiming at the folks in the stands, not the NHRA leadership. Remember the NHRA is a not for profit organization and they are only interested in perpetuation of their incomes not revitalizing the sport or venue. That is obvious by the way they treat the Sportsmen Racers as fill-in for rebuild time for Top Fuel and Fuel Funny Car.

Do not be surprised that sometime in the future, some outfit such as SEMA (also a non for profit organization) taking a run at NHRA as they at least see the importance of the aftermarket's survival. And that is not from the sale of parts for Top Fuel or Funny Cars. Their membership is comprised of the folks that manufacture and sell parts to the masses.
Note the parts on Factory Stock vehicles.....pretty clear to me.

By the way, FS should be its own eliminator so they can shine without overwhelming the real stock eliminator guys.

Ok then. Enjoyable rant over. Happy USA birthday and enjoy the day!

Regards to All - Dissident:)

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Not sure if it was Jack Matyas, got a bunch of teens to show up at the track and they got to see the cars up front and got a T-shirt and more personal face time with racers that they would at a National event with the pro's. That's action. I watched when a dad, grandfather and son stopped by in the pits to look at the cars.


That was actually me and my whole team at WHEELZ UP RADIO who brought the kids to New England Dragway for the Divisional.. We are doing it again this year. And we are also doing a Car Show the Thursday prior to the divisional at NED.. The Show will be on the grounds of the State House in Concord NH about 45 min from the track.. The kids had a great tie and we are super excited to bring them back this year for the 3rd Annual CARZ 4 KIDZ at NED Presented by Lucas Oil Products. So be sure to keep an eye open for us. And if you would like to show your race car off.. Let me know.

Thanks
Chris Barnes

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

I find it interesting that pro stock seems to be the only class that seems to have a problem (low car count, even sportsman classes). It seems to me both fuel classes seem to have the same problem but nothing is being done about those( need 1/4 mile races like in Australia, if need be cut the performance level). I know this is a s/ss forum so I will not get into it but the whole NHRA needs to be restructured to benefit NHRA, the fans, and the racers! Will that happen, I doubt it.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

As a guy trying to compete in Factory Stock, it is cool to see the support and interest. I like many of Asher's thoughts / ideas but I'm not sure it has to be one or the other with Pro or Factory Stock just yet... or maybe ever.

I think both classes have real merit and both could use some changes to improve the experience of the fans and make them more racer friendly.

I like many of Mr. Bell's ideas also but as currently the only Dodge Challenger, getting down to 3,400 lbs would mean a lot less donuts for me (no more donuts, and that AL block, I might make 3,450), so not sure about that part :) but the 10.5" tires fit just fine, ran them in SS last year. I strongly agree that when we don't qualify, we go home, not invade stock. A 16 car field would be nice and would add just one round.

Mr. Teuton's and other's ideas on scheduling would definitely help for racer's trying to sort these running on the edge FS/XX combos out and make it more fan friendly for those who wanted to watch them.

It will definitely be interesting to see how it all plays out. Very glad to be having fun and for now, lucky and blessed to be able to be a part of it in this great country... Happy Birthday USA and Happy 4th to all.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

There is a market for new factory performance cars.The new Dodge Demon will all be sold above MSRP, if you can get one at all.I would love to see the big three get back into nhra factory stock and replace pro stock.JMO

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

I can see by your writing that you are a well educated man. How about you decipher this post in PLAIN English so this dumb Azz hillbilly can understand what you are sharing with us ??

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

x2

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

A lot !
First of all , you'll need two sets of new tires for every race. One for qualifying,..one for the eliminator.
Oh, you guys think you won't need them? Maybe not, but the well financed pro team in the other lane will have them.
Yes, and you'll need crew members, gaskets, special tools, etc. , for the tear down.
Yes, tear down. These ARE Stockers, right?
They left them alone for a year, and look what happened.
Somebody sprinkled water on their supercharger, and it grew bigger.
Imagine that.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Millionaires Gone WILD...!!

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Like this isn't happening already?

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

That is funny! And no one got tossed either...

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Yes sir ..I agree but.......as the legendary band Bachman Turner Overdrive would say............You ain't seen nothin yet..........

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Let's not forget that this problem has been going on for decades. NHRA is completely incapable of enforcing the rules in any category, and the result has always been a gradual but steady increase in complexity and cost. Stockers used to actually be substantially stock. When they were, a racer could actually build one and compete at Divisional and even National events. He would load his Stocker on his open trailer, and his pickup would pull it to the track. Nowadays, He puts his $125,000 car in his stacker trailer and pulls it with a $200,000 toterhome. I feel (and admit that it's just my observation) that all categories have been allowed to do literally whatever they want, and the result has been former fans just losing interest, primarily because they don't understand the differences between categories and classes. Also, NHRA has made National events into circuses, with snowmobiles, bracket cars, Pro Mod, Top Dragster and Top Sportsman. Super Stock used to be an actual draw, because people who understood and loved the cars and what racers were able to make them do, would run to the fence to watch the wheelstands, whenever they were called. Finally, we shouldn't forget that many of today's kids couldn't care less about cars. Sure, Junior Dragster offers an option to the few who do intend to grow up in the sport, but the majority of kids would rather play video games. Everything has a life span, and that's usually because what starts out as a simple, great idea gets distorted into something you can't even recognize.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

We’re fortunate to have many bright, creative and resourceful members that contribute to this forum and it’s a pleasure to state that I learn from them each time I visit. I’m certain that other members are like-minded in this regard.

Before any additional energy is expelled by the release of thought/idea vectors that emanate from the Classracer nucleus, and prior to taking up cudgels for Pro Stock, Factory Stock or both, let’s use reverse gear and return to the origins of this thread.

Mike’s initial post referenced a short article that can only be understood to imply that a Pro-Stock hauler today is no less than a rolling sarcophagus, likely of limestone. Its ornate decor has been transformed to hieroglyphics, requiring the Rosetta stone to provide clarity and understanding.

In our organization, it's vital to fully understand a problem prior to attempting to create and implement a resolution.

The great man, Albert Einstein stated (and I paraphrase) – Give me an hour to save the world and I’ll spend 55 minutes defining the problem and 5 minutes resolving it.

So let’s begin the exercise.

The referenced article reinforced human nature. We’re very adept at creating solutions. Solutions are much more pleasurable and seemingly productive than analysis. The author spent considerable time discussing his proposal of a solution but very little time was consumed toward clearly defining the problem.

· Does Pro Stock have a problem? If so, what is it?

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Pro Stock Problems:

1. Money! This is obvious but the more money involved the more incentive for people to build cars to come race. Where does the money come from? Not sure but I can say for sure its not coming from NHRA. Its not going to happen and they've prove that year after year so lets not suggest that or assume they have the ability to market things better either, they've come up short there too going on many years. I truly believe the solution has to come from somewhere else where the dependence isn't on NHRA to survive. That goes for every other class too

2. A disappearing fan base. A changing fan base. How do you get people to consume the product that is Pro Stock better? I'm not sure of how to do this because the attention span of the generic consumer is small, their interest are changing/evolving, and how do we mesh that with a world of technology that is the source of much our entertainment these days. How do you bridge that gap?

These are two issues I see.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Mike:

Esoteric indicates a fan base that would pay dearly if you and friends install a W-motor in that wonderful wagon.

Intrinsic would imply the tri-power version is used.

These two words used together mandate it be a 4 speed.

Let me know if any further interpretation would be helpful.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

I'm just a casual fan, but I have always liked stock and super stock. Pro Stock started intriguing me when I was in my mid-twenties. Full disclosure, I'm 35 now. And I probably know and understand way more about each category then 99% of the other casual fans simply bc I enjoy learning about the ins and outs of the classes.

But I started to lose interest a couple years ago when I realized that the class is just becoming so mundane and uninteresting. For a time it almost seemed like whoever let the clutch foot out first would win the race. Okay, so we have these really expensive cars that are so evenly matched it comes down to who can let the left foot up first. That gets pretty boring race after race after race after race.

But I'm one of those casual fans who has always liked watching drag racing ever since I was a little kid. I still remember my dad taking me to Baylands in Fremont, California.

If I had the money and the time, I would absolutely figure out a way to have a stock or super stock car. But to be completely honest, I just cannot see spending $30,000 for an entry-level stocker, another $50k for a very used motorhome & trailer, and spending the amount of time and money it would take to be a division 3 racer for a hobby. Does that mean I think stock and super stock are going to die? Absolutely not. But I'll sit on this side of the fence for a long long time simply watching you guys and respecting (the absolute dog snot) what you do.

Whether it is stock, super stock, top dragster, top Sportsman, comp Eliminator, or any of the super categories, drag racing "participants" has evolved into a blue-collar sport for white-collar people.

In regards to the FS cars taking over Pro Stock; it is something I would like to see. I think as of right now it's pretty neat that the same cars I can watch go down the quarter mile in low-to-mid 8-seconds look just like their street legal counterpart driving around on the road.
I do think it's only a matter of time though that the guys with the deepest pockets will eventually rule the roost and take over the factory Showdown cars if they do become the new Pro Stock. The only way to save that would be if, and I do mean a serious if, NHRA can regulate it and keep it to where the above average joe's can still compete with the Grays, Ken Black, Elite, Etc.

When I'm in the stands, either at a divisional or a national, other fans like the FS cars. Sure, they don't know jack squat about the cars, but they can relate to them. And that's how you spark interest. Finding common ground.

I truly am sorry that NHRA put you guys through so much crap. You guys put so much Blood Sweat and Tears into your hobby and NHRA pretty much doesn't give a darn about it. So I guess you can say that's another reason why I really don't want to race in any category NHRA has to offer. Because what's the point of spending all of that money and time just to feel like I'm getting crapped on week in & week out.

Sorry for the long post. Just thought some of you would want to hear thoughts from a fan and not a fellow racer.

Matt Hanley
Hendersonville, TN

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Pro stock is the only pro category that I like to watch. The racing is very close and has become a drivers race. No more can you cut a .060 light and expect to win a round. It would be better for the class if the other makes were better represented. Nothing in a pro stock car came from the big 3 manufacturers. Every part is aftermarket racing equipment. The one thing that has hurt pro stock was the addition of pro mod into NHrA ationalevent competition. Pro mod is kind of pro stock on steroids and they have taken away some of the potential sponsorships that could have gone to the pro stock teams. I don't think that replacing pro stock with the factory stock cars will make any difference. If there is no sponsor money the millionaires will be the only ones running those cars as well. It really comes down to the fact that NHRA has not promoted a good value for the sponsors needed to keep the high dollar classes funded. The super teams in all of the pro classes have pretty much ruined it for the smaller teams or privateers and NHRA has stood by and allowed it to happen. The factory stock class should be a class all i its own to see if it can survive on its own merits. If you can't qualify for the FD show than you should not be allowed bac in the stock or super stock elimination rounds with the same vehicle. I don't know how long the factories will continue to build the cars and engine components to keep the factory stock class alive. I guess time will tell in that. The factory stock cars are very cool but they are not that fun to watch. The cars a finicky with regard to traction and there is not many good side by side races that I have seen where at least one of the cars did not have traction problems. Big power and small tires have that recipe.
I surely don't have the answers nor do the sanctioning bodies. All Motorsports seem to be in the same predicament. Gate fees too high for the racer and spectator is one big issue. I was recently at the Coke Zero 400 at Daytona and the attendance there was at an all time low. Just too expensive. The racing and entertainment was really good and the updates that were done to the Daytona speedway are spectacular. Too bad they did not add a drag strip to the property when they did the update.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

So you're saying that the problem with today's Stock and Super Stock classes are the tow rigs and the other classes that have been allowed to run the events?

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

.....Oh, OK......Thanks....For a moment I thought I might have to ask Chuck Norton to translate it for me........

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

The idea that fans would neither recognize nor care about the difference between today's funny car-like Pro Stock bodies and something that looks like a showroom car is preposterous. It's one of the major gripes with NASCAR for *years*. Setting rules that create performance, parity, and wheelstands is hardly arcane. It's irrelevant if the "average" fan knows how or why the "resultant competition" is close and exciting. Additionally, it's NHRA's job to educate that fan base so that they *are* more knowledgeable about what they are watching, thus enjoying and appreciating it more.

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

There's not one single piece on a Pro Stock that is "stock"

( as defined as a piece used by an automaker in the production of their street legal cars)

Re: Interesting...Jon Asher on Pro Stock and Factory Stock
 

For many years now I have been saying that it's 'technology' that is killing all sorts of motorsports, not just NHRA Pro and Sportsman. I'm talking about any king of propelled vehicle all over the world.

Technology has transformed racing into a boring sport because the competition between racing apparatus has gotten too close and too predictable.

All forms of racing are affected, consider Formula One that has battled with this for decades with many, many ideas and changes trying to keep it exciting while affordable with unlimited budgets from the teams.

You only have to look at the bracket like consistency of a modern day Top Fuel car to see it, very boring.