Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Racers,

Myself along with other SRAC rep's have received many phone calls and emails about the new Jones approved SBC cylinder head. At this point we have not taken a stance on this but in an effort to get more information on the head I contacted Erik Jones. At the conclusion of the conversation we decided it would be a good idea to have an open forum for questions or concerns with the head. This will better inform all of us and help both the SRAC and the racers with their stance on the head being legal.

We would ask that all racers who comment please put your name and car number. We also ask that non racers do not comment on this thread. Please keep this very professional and factual.

Thank you,
Justin Lamb

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I don't use the Chevy head so I don't vote. Thanks Justin for keeping us all informed.

Larry Hill

383 Stock

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I have no problem with the replacement heads as long as they don't give an unfair advantage. If the replacement head is a better head than the stock head it should carry a horsepower penalty. From what I have read this head has angle plug configuration. I don't know if that makes a big difference or not. Typically the angle plug heads are more of a performance head. Also some of the aftermarket heads have been talked about having larger ports than the factory head. Both of these items should have a horsepower penalty. I have a stock of the factory heads for my car so I don't see myself putting aftermarket head on my car any time soon. If I was to build an new set it would be from a set of aftermarket brand new castings not 50 year old factory castings. One good point is that there is still interest from the aftermarket to make heads so we can continue to race the older combo's. I have been racing my car for 40 years.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Is the Jones legal for Stock and S/S? If it's legal for Stock with the angled spark plug I'd like to know how that happened. Pontiac racers have been trying to get a head approved for a few years now and have been told no because all the aftermarket heads have angled plugs.

Adam Strang
Stk 1018

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Ok I guess I'll be the first to jump in. In no way is anything I say intended to bash mr Jones. NHRA has been going down the aftermarket path for some time. Not saying it's all been for the best but that's for you guys to judge. But this one until somethings get cleared up I do have a problem with. The angle plug deal Im not going to waste anytime with that there are enough people on here to debate that. But if in fact the head was cast by somebody for Eric then that's a game changer in the world of aftermarket heads. That I'm not sure we should be going down. Do I feel there should be a porters head for s/s? Yes As long as its coming from a manufacturer that anybody else can call summit jegs etc and get the same thing. If the pictures that were forwarded to me were correct it's just a AFR head with the logo machined off. But I'm not here to say the photos were correct. I guess in the end my question is if they allow a person to have there own casting or control over the casting where is this going to ever end?

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

The Jones head is SS only, not stock. It’s not the first angle plug SBC head in SS, 2 of the 4 edelbrock heads accepted on a bunch of SBC are angle plug.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I'm going to say this as a semi retired competitor and engine builder. Take it for what it is worth.

I'm not even sure there should be a "porter's head" allowed. That's really not in the spirit of Super Stock. Not every combination has one available.

In all honesty, if there is a bare unmachined casting available for a certain head, that head shouldn't be legal.

Why? Because it is an unnecessary escalation that makes tech nearly impossible, drives the cost up even further, and defies the spirit of the class. Heads available in rough or cast form, barely machined, allowing valve seat and valve guide locations to be significantly altered, along with other modifications that would be difficult and/or cost prohibitive just aren't what the classes need.

While it is true that there were millions of small block Chevy engines built, there have also been at least half that many raced, and there have not been many replacement castings made in a long damned time. Face it, the small block Chevy is the sportsman motorsports engine.Even though it was produced for nearly 5 decades, eventually, at the rate it is raced and used in hot rods, the cores have been used up at an alarming rate.

However, there have been reasonable facsimiles of the original parts made for a while, the aftermarket has made cast iron cylinder heads with 64cc to 72cc chambers, and 164cc to 172cc ports, for decades. Those could be accepted replacements, and that should be good enough.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Andrew, yes it's s/s only I got that part. Who's casting is it? Yes Edelbrock has angle plug heads on the list. They could put the plug in the center of the head and give it a "NHRA" part number But if the number don't match anything in the guide it's pretty much useless.
Like the post said "racer only" so if the racers spending the money don't give a s*** why am I?? I'll just step out of this and watch it unfold.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Joe Bohannon
Super Stock/JA 3678

While I think it's great that people are putting in the time and effort to better the parts that are available for us to buy and race, I don't feel like they should be superior in design to the ones that are already available. That is the job of the engine builder and cylinder head Porter. For a competitor and competitive engine builder to have the ultimate control of the castings in my opinion is a bad idea. There are too many variables that can be adjusted that would make one head better than another with little ability to tell with the naked eye. Port design, valve angle, valve placement, wall thickness, all come to mind and all could be adjusted. While I'm sure Mr. Jones has a fortune tied up in this I really feel as though it would be bad for the direction of the class, not only for the other brands that these parts have to compete against but also for the individuals running similar combinations. I really wish that this could have been a discussion prior to anyone spending the amount of money that this man did as I personally would rather not see them in the class. We already have available options, why do we need more unless they are designed to supersede an existing product. I will say this, there are few people in the sport right now that's working as hard as this man is working, and he will find new ways to be fast regardless of how this turns out. Thanks for the motivation.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Tilburg,

Hopefully i can clear up some of the issues with this whole deal. NHRA actually has a pretty strict guideline on their accepted products. I have been working on making parts and getting them approved and on the list for about 2 years. I have Pistons and now Cylinder Heads along with other parts like rockers, carb plates etc.. that i designed to fix specific problem. All of the NHRA accepted products have to be available to the general public and that is exactly what i have done. Anyone can buy my accepted products directly as stated on my web site.

With that being said i followed the same procedure as any of the companies on the list and waited my turn. I have heard for years that we need a smaller casting to start with so that is what i did. This is a fully machined head with seats and guides installed (in the approved location) just like the 4 other approved SBC heads on the list except i eliminated the "bogus welding" so any racer could start with the exact same platform as everyone else without the cost. In my opinion this levels the ball field. NHRA knows exactly who casts the heads because that is the first requirement on the letter that gets submitted. This is no different that the FE Pro Port casting that we have had for years.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Erik,
Im not here to say you did anything wrong in you acceptance process with NHRA. Don't think you did. I felt like you with all the welding BS that is needed it would have been nice if they took a core they already have approved and just made the ports Smaller. Which would cut costs and free up time in small shops which is where most of these things are produced. And when something blows up it don't take 6 months to get back on the track. BUT as it was brought up to me you do that anyone can do it. Edelbrock might as well just sell you a ported head. Put that way I guess it's better to maybe rethink my thoughts on that. I wish you the very best on your endeavor and I'm sure it will be fast stuff as your stuff is. Like I said earlier if this is what the racers want feed it to them. I'm out. Only thing I did miss who owns the casting

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

In the past, the decision to allow replacement aftermarket parts such as the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" for traditional Super Stock class cars, NHRA has taken the position to address three major points -- 1) the need, 2) the impact on preserving integrity and definition of the class, and 3) the resulting rise in cost. In regard to the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," it appears those criteria no longer govern NHRA's position on such matters.

So let's examine those three criteria.

1-2) Need and ensuring integrity and definition: With a large selection of mass-produced after-market cylinder heads available, there is no need for this type of head for a class with restrictions such as valve guide angle, valve spacing, etc., or in following integrity and definition. Aside from the 1993-98 fuel-injection LT1, there never was a production 265-400 cubic inch small block Chevrolet cylinder head offered with angled spark plugs.

3) Cost (a key element in allowing the legalization of the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head"). The large number of after-market cylinder heads currently available and accepted by NHRA assures some key elements are maintained, such being produced to original OEM specifications -- valve guide angles are the proper 23-degree spacing, the chamber spacing maintains OEM specs, etc. These elements are a must as these heads are designed first to be sold to the much larger market than NHRA Super Stock racers an engine-builders in as much as Super Stock head sales are a very small fraction of the market and manufacturers must be sure that these heads will be able to used in a variety of applications so as to maximize their return on investment. This in turn also ensures that no matter what major manufacturer an engine-builder or head-porter chooses, they will do their own modifications. In short, everyone is pretty much working with a "spec" cylinder head.



The "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," would be great for a class that would allow any type of modifications such as changing the valve guide angles, moving valve position, chamber location, water jacket modifications, more extensive porting , custom ports, etc. However, allowing this type of head to be used in tradition Super Stock classes only guarantees costs will climb and class integrity will be compromised. Any creative cylinder head porter will use the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" to morph current rules, making tech difficult at a time NHRA appears to be relaxing technical inspection. This would open a new area of confusion and more problems, and how to handle the next wave of porter heads. Allow one, how does NHRA say no to the next applicant? Recall the 1968 Mopar Hemi head, where the rules were allowed to morph to the point where a similar problem surfaced with the 1968 Hemi cars and before NHRA knew it, the Hemis ended up getting their own class, which has since lost some of its cache. NHRA might be better served to revisit some of the mistake of the past before making decisions that might guarantee more in the future.

In short, allowing the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" and others like it to be made legal in traditional Super Stock class racing a will only guarantee costs to go up and controversy and problems to follow.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

This is not good for super stock and if accepted it will eventually find its way into stock eliminator. And if you disagree just look at the cam 54 mm cam tunnel that started in super stock . This never ending line to the door step of NHRA is going to speed up the demise of super stock and take stock with it .We could debate the I eliminated the " Bogus welding " all day, but just how do you get the exhaust port from the stock configuration to the welded (brazed) D port we are using now. Tilburg is correct NHRA has been going down the aftermarket path for some time.and the results
are creating to higher costs .

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Do these heads come with the seats and guides installed from the manufacturer or is this done at your shop Eric? Jeff Dona ss 3269

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Jeff

The castings are delivered to me in raw form. I machine the cylinder head to meet exactly what i sent to NHRA. There are 3 machining operations that cover the 3 cylinder heads i submitted, 283 thru 327 (small seat dia), 327 thru 400 (large seat dia) and LT1 (large seat,center bolt cover and water holes).

I will be posting a picture later of the valve bowl with seats installed to show how moving the seat and guide location would require welding just like it does on the 4 other replacement castings.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Joey, John, Sean

You guys have some good points and let me try to explain those.

"Controlling the Casting or Manipulation of the castings"
Its not as easy as it sounds, when i started this whole deal it was a big eye opener... I thought the foundries could "just add material and make me a head". Any time you want to move or add material it requires a mold to do so and they are expensive to do this. The process of casting a head is very expensive. This casting has everything it needs to prep a current day super stock head to legal specs with no welding....I have no need to "Hand scrape or manipulate the casting". It is available to everyone to use in the same form.

"Moving guide locations"
The heads are sold with seats and guides installed and it would require the same amount of work and welding to move them as it would for the 4 other heads on the list. You still need to remove the seats and guides, weld them up (including the valve bowl) do your offset and re install the seats/guides. Same process as you would do for any cylinder head.

"Bogus welding"
I meant this in the form of external welding. All welding inside the ports is legal, external is not.

"Cost"
To prep a set of current day heads for Super Stock you will have a min of $7500 in them and can be as high as 14K. If you start with a casting like the FE Pro Port head from Edelbrock you eliminate about 2K in welding...This was the whole point of doing this when they submitted that head 8 years ago. Another side to this is if you destroy a head it is way easier to take a new casting, run a cnc program thru it, cut the valve job and flat mill it and be done.

In my opinion, the combos that have a replacement head right now make it unfair to those who don't... now everyone has the same part to start with and it is up to the head porter and engine builder to make a better piece instead of having a better part to start with.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

What is the Edelbrock casting number you are refering to regarding the accepted "FE pro-port head"?


Rich Pinoski SS734

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I see it now Edelbrock 61857

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Sorry Rich, i just saw your post. That is correct i don't know exactly when it was approved but it has been a long time.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Those of us who have been around Super Stock racing for a few decades have heard this kind of wishful thinking story before. "My new product will lower costs because it will eliminate manual machining or modification steps that you're currently paying for. And if you break a piston/head/block, you just order-up a replacement and you're good to go". Through all of those situations, I have never seen the cost (or complexity) of anything go down. And the net effect of every single one of these "make it faster and cheaper for the racer" initiatives was Super Stock moving further and further away from what it was when it was conceptualized, decades ago. When one guy starts using these heads, everybody will see that, to remain competitive, they will all have to. And almost immediately, cheaters will begin illegally modifying the one-off, never-offered-in-production heads, and NHRA will be forced (because they have no backbone) to make heads with changed valve angles, raised, lowered or back-cut intake and exhaust flanges (to yield straighter and/or larger ports), etc. legal. And our already virtually Comp cars move another increment away from any kind of affordability. As I said in a post couple of months ago, wonder why Sportsman drag racing is dying? Because nobody can afford a $150,000 Super Stock car. I don't begrudge Mr. Jones his idea or his products; I just don't understand what problem they solve, versus the problems they'll create.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Eric I believe and many others that I have spoken with believe that giving you a engine builder a raw head to sell to all the other cly head / engine builders will open the door for a lot of speculation on wether they are getting the same head that you may or may not be using on your own engines. I’m not lashing out at you personally but if engine builder x did the same thing wouldn’t you be wondering and speculating if your getting the same spark plug height, seat and guide location, material left in areas to work with the list of things could go on for days. I personally think this machining process should be left to the manufacturer. At this point there are 4 heads available to use that I’m aware of why do we need to keep adding more. Like I said before this is nothing against you personally it’s just my opinion and the opinion of many others. You know this will open the box for everyone to do the same thing and nhra won’t be able turn them away so it’s like opening up pandoras box’s. Jeff Dona

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

One other thing I don’t understand is how these replacement heads only carry a 5 hp penalty when they are given several more ccs than than the factory head has. I know that’s the way they were excepted in the past but why keep doing it fix it! My lt1 combo gets 10 hp for basically the same head just better material that the seat don’t fall out of. Sorry to get off track but this is a unfair issue.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Sounds like SS is becoming more NASCAR

Stock/SS Components are failing as the rules allow more power.

Then NHRA introduces a fix which stretches the rules further.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Jeff

You have a valid point... I don't think i need to answer for my integrity, my customers and people who have worked with me know where i stand on rules and being thrown into a certain group of people. I have worked hard to get where i am and i have no intention of tarnishing my reputation and losing what i have.

To answer your question as to what i would do if another Cylinder Head/ Engine builder did this same thing would i question what i was getting. My honest answer is no. When i start a project i have a goal in mind and how ever i end up at that within the confines of our rule book is what i do. One of the biggest discussions i have with my customers is the "Do what the rest are doing" I have never been that way and i will never go down that road. When i choose a part to start with i know what it will take and what i can get from it. I think the guys we are racing with do the same things, thats what makes Super Stock what it is.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Eric I’m not questioning your integrity and your hard work speaks for itself but parts that are on the manufacturer excepted product list must be available to everyone as the are made to keep a even playing field. Jeff Dona

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

delete

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

delete

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Jeff

I think where people are missing this is Jones Engine Development is listed as the manufacturer. NHRA has on file the name of the foundry that casts the heads. This is what is referred to as "private label manufacturing". This works the same as the following.

GM Performance parts replacement heads are cast in a foundry in San Jacinto Ca that is not owned by GM. They are then machined to GM specs and sold as a GM part.

Mopar Performance heads are cast in the same foundry and follow the same procedure.

Mine are cast in a foundry in south gate and I machine the to follow what NHRA will accept.

Pistons Forgings are made by a Forge in Montebello Ca and sold to various piston manufactures as their forging, the same way that i do my replacement pistons.

This list of accepted products pretty much follows this same idea. 90% of the acceptance process is the machining operations and not the raw material. My heads are available to anyone who wants to buy them as approved by NHRA, this is exactly how the rest of the industry does it. I have to follow the same procedures as all of the companies on the accepted products list and sell them exactly how they were approved.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I am hesitant to mention this because it was before you guys were born. I worked at King Engingines in Detroit racing my GT 3 car .. Bill developed a way to covert to angle plugs on SBCs. There was an article in Car Craft in 1970 about the process .. This is not new .. It was not an NHRA deal .. It was for circle track but the conversion was identicle .. It made more HP .. He sold many sets .. Good luck with this. .. Ron

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

My dealings with Erik Jones have been good, everything he did checked within .2 of a cc of numbers he said it would be. My micrometer and his agree within .0002". Mr. Jones is a creative, skilled, tenacious, craftsman, that does excellent work, and provides value for for the moneys spent!


Larry Hill

383 A/SA

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Never mind. I don't have a current number.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

I like the idea of the new cylinder heads. It’s getting harder and harder to find the old heads we have aftermarket companies like Jones trying to make the sport better The head is available to everybody NHRA can still tear you down can still look at it Dominic Camera 7777 SS

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Many are missing the point of contention and issue with these new cylinder heads.
The Jones cylinder heads, including two of the Edelbrock approved heads, have an an angle plug configuration.
I believe that about 95% of the Chevy small block engines, use an OEM straight plug configuration.

Dwight Sutherland made a very clear statement on his posting regarding the fact that these approved cylinder heads completely deviate from what is stated in the rule book.

If the intent was to offer a replacement to the OEM cylinder head, why not offer it with the OEM straight plug configuration?

Does an angle plug offer a power advantage?
Yes they do!

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

You wouldn’t have a Jones engine in the oven, would ya Dominic? Hey, when can I get that engine cradle back you owe me?

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Erik,
I have a question maybe two.
When "Jones engine development" woke up that morning and said I'm going to create a head that will level the playing field in S/S. What did he have in mind?
Did you go into it saying I'm going to keep all the same issues the current heads have had for the past 50 years? Such as areas.
When you made your core boxes for your head did you have the sizes and shapes of a modern s/s port in mind and put the water accordingly?
If I was getting ready to spend that kind of money I sure would of had to have that in the back of my mind.
Erik in no way am I getting on here to try to belittle you. The form was just opened up to try to clear up some questions for everyone.
I understand that there are other heads approved. And if they do it for them they should do it for Jones development Manufacturing.
I'm sure your spacing and angles are correct I wouldn't question that for a minute!
But all the other heads Alum and cast other than the" 2nd dart head" were as cast port heads that the manufacturer came up with as a replacement to put on your street car. Rather than spending money on old iron. And put the water jackets in them accordingly.
I'm sure you have worked on your fair share of these aftermarket heads. And you would have to admit you run into the same issues as a stock head.
I'm in no way saying that starting with a clean sheet of paper wouldn't be nice but I think this might not be the place to do it. I wish you all the best and hope you get the reward for all your hard work you have put into this.
Just my thoughts

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Erik obviously had an idea and did the work to get this head approved through the existing procedures set down by Nhra.

It appears to me that there are 2 main points of concern.

The first is that these are angle plug heads. If some manufacturers angle plug heads have already been approved, why, if you were developing a new head, would you not be angle plug? That ship has already sailed.

The second point is that there is material left in the runners that allows porting without extensive or even any welding or epoxy. I just don't see a downside to this. It allows every engine builder to search for the perfect runner with less labor. If he feels the perfect runner is already availiable in another casting then of course stick with it.

The sport we've chosen is not cheap. It's made up of a lot of smart, hard working people who come up with ideas to improve the performance of our cars, within the rules of Nhra.

This seems to be one of those ideas.

Yes, I am Eriks friend and customer and hope he develops a big block mopar casting before I'm on Medicare.

My opinion

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Sorry, but I have no idea what this means...

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

First off I would like to thank Mr. Jones, I consider him an innovator in our sport and along with that comes controversy. If the heads listed in his website are approved by the NHRA and meet OEM Specs when finished, along with a HP. Penalty for the replacement heads, what’s the problem?

As for me I will welcome to new Heads, as I have experienced water leaks on every pair of heads I have purchased. The porter heads would be a cheaper alternative.

Ron Terrell
SS-3215

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Sean.

Justin started this post for an open discussion for the topic of this cylinder head, I have done my best to stay professional thru this. To answer your question if i am doing an engine for Dominic the answer is yes. I gave him the same answer i gave you when you asked me to do an engine for you guys after Indy...."I'm a year and a half out" the only difference is Dominic said yes.

In my opinion the only reason you are against this being approved is because i am taking the advantage away that you think you have. Remember i stood right next to you in the barn at Indy with your cylinder head in your hand... I have been looking at cylinder heads for a long time and i know what i am looking at. NHRA can only police what is written down and what they can measure and we both know that. Now there is a casting that everyone can buy to start on a level playing field.

Tilburg,

Yesterday your comments showed that you didn't understand the way a cylinder was made and today you are talking about casting boxes.... The only thing i can say on that is if you think spark plug location and water jacket on an aluminum aftermarket head that has to end up 172 ccs makes a difference in how it runs then you are working in the wrong area.

I've done my best to answer legitimate questions without beating around the bush, this is a serious topic about someone who is trying to make your lives easier if you don't wan't that then that's fine with me. I have already contacted NHRA about changing the plug location and or removing the heads from the list. In the end my customers still get the best that i can do at that time regardless of what i start with. Judging from the 30 phone calls i received yesterday your implications are acknowledged, so let the cards fall where the may gentleman.

Re: Jones Head - Racers Only
 

Brian builds some of the fastest engines in stock and your saying he should find another line of work? That's rich man.......