AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Heard this weekend that next year there will be a 7.5 and 7.0 lb weight break for the newer high H.P. cars and Fuel Injection is being consolidated. Any one else get wind of this???

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Same as what you heard Troy, but nothing in stone, just rumors for now.
I think it is a mistake to combine the FI cars, why should they want to rock the boat like that?
Sit down and do the math, lots of us with the older cars can go home if they do this.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

If this is going to be the case I would like to see 5 or more hp come off the 255/350 motor. I can't keep up with a fuel injected car that can tuned by a computer. I see that would be the only way to make it somewhat fair.
I remember when the F/I cars first came into stock running G/SA and H/SA and how fair it was then. So all the D/FIA will now be running G/SA since they have the same index. What combinations currently run in D/FIA?

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Jim, how fast can you go in B/SA? Bobby, NHRA has put 61 horsepower on the LT1 since we first came out with the F body! The DF/IA cars have to weigh better than 3800 lbs with an LT1.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

JIM , you hit the nail right on the head, we can go home. The lower the class the worse it gets.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Woodro,

What about the 1990 Corvette,the 1993 Mustang, and the 1985 Carmaro? What GM cars that came with the LT1 have to weigh 3800 lbs? Were those the Caprices, and Impalas?

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bobby, any Camaro or Firebird Convertible that runs DF/IA has to weigh 3866. I saw where a Div1 G/SA went 11.12 i believe on the brakes, havent seen a DF/IA car go that fast lately!

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Evan Smith is the only Mustang that can run that fast. I believe he went 10.86 in SS/K at Englishtowntrim earlier in the year and just went 10.91 in stock this past weekend at the LODRS there.

Dean Cook II went 11.80 in F/FI at Indy in a 1995 cobra
Richard Zink II went 11.96 in G/FI at Indy. in an LX body stlye


those are just about the fastest stocker Ford Fuel Injected cars that I can think of. I appologize if anyone out there has gone faster. I don' t think the GM cars have anything to worry about there.

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I'm not picking on you guys Woody, I just don't think they should combine us thats my point. The darned AHFS is already enough of a joke without complicating things IMO.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

A D/FIA 1990 Corvette went 11.12 at Indy this year. I guess what I have a problem with is that the FIA cars have the ability to run better in hotter weather since they can make adjustments depending on weather conditions. When it gets hot my car slows down a ton. If anyone has any ideas on how to tune a 255/350 in hot weather I would greatly appreciate it.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Jim I agree with you 100%

Don't want to get all the FI gods mad, but it is quite evident that the hp ratings on some of these combo's don't equate.

I can understand NHRA wanting to combine classes, but how can they throw us all in together and hope that the AHFS will work this time, since it never has worked it the past?

If the FI cars were closer in actual HP numbers, I would have no objection to combining all, but I don't think they are even close in most of the combinations. One just has to look at the qualifying sheets from Division races.

What about combining all stick and auto classes, just keeping the carb cars and FI cars separate?


R J Sledge

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

I sent an email to Nitro Joe today. Maybe he can give us the averages for the LS1 in A (8lbs), B (9lbs), and C (10 lbs) vs A/S (A) @ 8 lbs, C @ 9 lbs and E/SA @ 10 lbs. Does anything other than an LS1 run in A & B?

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Jeff I believe the LT-1 cars can run B/FIA and B/FI with the weight out.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

LT-1 fits B/FIA with weight right at 3200lbs in 98 camaro.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Please be fair here, you really need to seperate the argument. All new combinations are fuel injected and some have been here for a while. While I say that, some are not factered correctly, the LT1 and LS1 have been pounded with NHRA hp. ( it needs time to evolve all new combo's hp ) and a legal one is about right, across the board ( I'm biased towards LT1 been OK ). Unsure of the Ford combo's, but I bet somebody with a good legal piece wouldn't mind commenting on that. The LS1's are still been figured out and will continue to show some performance gains, they're a bad piece if you can keep 'em together!
What's wrong?????????????
I believe that the Tech dept. has passed many bogus set's of heads, it's not about light rotating assemblies ( records, teardowns etc. ) in the past few years and it's because they don't need any drama and they'll pass 'em!!! The 'Old school' tech. guys see it all the time and know it, but, they're not allowed to do the job their paid for, albiet, a small amount ! It could be the new (2007) attitude for NHRA tech. department!!!!!!!! I'm really concerned about this because it seems you can get away with no grinding marks and if it makes CC's it's OK. Now we need 'em to pour 'em and give us a number !!! Some engine builders are using this knowlege to their advantange and making it work, heck, if I built engines I'd want the sell the fastest piece that passes.
There have been major gains in transmission technology lately and it shows, but, some guy's are way out there and ya just gota ask how did he do that ?????????
Ya' can't stop anybody from playing within the rules as they're inforced. There in lies the problem, Petey!!!!!
Bottom line, wait till you you see the new breed of FI cars coming your way, the new weight break may be the reason? It'll be in your theatre soon !!!!!
That's my rant, B

P. S. Once consolidated, how does everbody feel about the one pound weight break, we've had it all the time and it means, for an LT1, you need to shift 672 pounds between A/fia thru C/fia. The higher the HP, the more weight it takes to go down one class and it's crazy. If it stays the same, we won't be able to run B/sa or D/sa. Take away the one pound break and most of us would run, the way it was, C/sa thru E/sa, I think I'm right, but I've been wrong before!
B

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bernie your close. The LS-1 and LT-1 are both legal for B/FIA. I know that a LT-1 has the record but that was in ballistic air. A real good LT-1 will not run with a real good LS-1. Im not complaining it just will not do it. It was my choice to build a LT-1. If the trend continues, I will do a LS-1. I do not see how NHRA could ever make the traditional stockers and the FI cars compatable. Just my 2 cents worth.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Put the FI cars back in.They have been factored pretty hard and they are factory built cars that should run against carb cars.More heads up runs, this is a performance based class.You can adjust your carb the same as changing your fuel curve via laptop.If you can't run with them either try harder or join them.Glenn.

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Hey Glenn,
You make it sound pretty easy, what kind of car do you race in Stock?

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Jim, my bro, ya sound a little repressed with the future competition !

For all you guys that think an FI car is a walk in the park, we've got more problems than you can even imagine, untill ya figure it out! I'm happy to say that I've done that with hard work, no lottery here either.

Don't be scared of the red light! B

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Jim,

Glenn and his partneer Henry Kunz run one of the baddest G/SA 350 Novas in the country, with a carburetor and a 'glide. Henry, Bruce Noland, Steve Ficcaci, myslef and a few others have been tightly packed in Jr. Stock. At times I've had the fastest car and at times it has been the other guys, all on an 11.0-lb. break.

Glenn and Bruce have been 10.70s and can run with my Ford all day long. Ficcaci isn't far behind, neither are a few 340 Mopars, such as Dusty Lowel and Mark Dickerson. Fact is, Bernie is right, EFI is not magic, the air goes in and we have to tune the fuel and the timing curves just like anyone with a carburetor. Of course a fuel injector will atomize fuel very efficiently, but most throttle bodies are small compared to some of the carburetors. Anyone with a carburetor can purcahse a MSD 7 ignition and have a tunable timing map and even do cylinder-to-cylinder timing. One could easily argue that EFI is better for all-around performance and drivability (cold-start, fuel economy, etc.), but most drag cars operate in a small rpm window where EFI and carburetion is actually quite equal. I've dyno tested many engines with EFI vs carburetor and they always seem to be close. And like Bernie stated, there is a lot more that can go wrong with an EFI car.

Most EFI engines are better because of improved manifold and cylinder head port design. But what is NHRA to do, give everyone their own class so everyone in our PC world can have a trophy? My car has EFI, but is 20 years old so i'd hardly call it state of the art. If the car came from Detroit it should not be segregated. Had segregation not occured years ago the problem cars would have straightened themselves out much quicker. Carbureted cars have had many new parts become legal such as the intake for the 396 that most guys are picking up .08 to a tenth with. How is an EFI car supposed to combat that? I'm not picking on Chevy guys, I love the original muscle cars and know full well that they need superseded parts to keep going. If anyone thinks that the superseded parts aren't better than original then get off the drugs. Let me add that engines from the Big 3 are only going to get better. The technology will improve and the cars will go fast. Let them run and let the AHFS sort it out. If new technology is better then go in that direction.

Let's get real, this is Class racing. There is no way to make thousands of combinations 100% equal, however, the more heads-up runs that occur, the more the AHFS system will work. There will be less babysiting of combinations and less sandbagging. All we need to do is count every run to prevent the sandbagging.

Evan

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Evan,

I pretty much agree with your post except for the AHFS.

The latest round of "adjustments" were totally bogus and should be withdrawn by nhra. The latest guy in charge of the AHFS has made dramatic changes in the system without telling any of the racers and we can only look for more abuse in the future; if we don't act now. I called Wesley and asked for his private email (apparently he has no nhra email) because I had some serious questions about what he had done to the system. He gave me his email address, and here it is four weeks later, and he has refused to respond to any of my questions. Not a surprise, however, we deserve better from an organization that wants to be a leader in the motor sports world. I'm still working on nhra to put the system back together; because it is surly broken.

The staff at nhra just can't seem to get it into their heads that they have responsibility to be, at the very least, professional in their approach to the rules. The AHFS has been abused by every nhra staff member who has exercised control over it. The racers helped to develop the AHFS and now we have some butchered version by Wesley et.al. The racers were never given advanced notification of these changes. This BS is going to stop! The racers must become involved in their own rule systems.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bruce

What, in your opinion, needs to be done with the AHFS?? If you would "junk" it, what would you do to improve the HP situation?

I have heard a lot of bashing and complaining, and I have done it myself, but how about some solid and positive conversation on HOW to put together a system that will work.

NHRA needs some advice on how to improve what they have now, but it needs to be simple (KISS), so that it can be enforced by the Tech people. If its too complicated it won't work.

I agree with you that something needs to be done, just not sure what and how to do it.

RJ Sledge

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

R. J.

The first thing that must be done is to return the AHFS to the original version that we the racers designed in concert with nhra. You know, the HP system that was billed as the cure for meddling hands from nhra.

The second, make no changes to the AHFS until receiving feedback from the racers. As promised by Len Imbrogno.

The third, and the most important. No rules should be changed/enforced without advanced publication of the changes. Right now the system is currently an ambush device that changes without notice and is used to sabotage thousands of hours of work and thousands of dollars that have been invested by the racers. We all know that Danny Gracia is the MAN and he is the one who is ultimately responsible for the mess the AHFS has become. He allows these guys to mangle the system and then watches as nhra goes into it's hunker-down-teflon-mode when the complaints come pouring in.

Finally, serious criticism of a long festering problem at nhra is not bashing!

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Glenn also has a A,B/SA Camaro that may be out again soon. I'm sure it will run with the big dogs!

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bruce can you be more specific? how does the current AHFS vary from what you are generally describing and "the way it used to be"?
Better yet give one criteria which should be used? Altitude factoring? Air gauge/ Teardown first?
R Sledge is right. Give real examples...please

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Geezz Dick,

Wake up!

Just look it up for yourself. The orginal AHFS is still on the nhra site. There is a very simple one paragraph description of how we set up the system.

Now Wesley and others have created this after-the-fact monster of a system that basicly says they can do what ever the hell they please and without telling one racer about the changes before they implement them.

The AHFS that we voted for was a combination specific system. The system that Wesley has created says he no longer needs similar combinations to get a triggering event. He has also combined huge numbers of cars that were never even considered to be similar by the original AHFS - like Chev, Olds, Buick, and Pontiac.

Your question shows that you have not been paying attention. This problem has nothing to do with teardowns or any number of side show issues. But, it has everything to do with the design and administration of the rules and how Wesley and others have cheated us by abusing the system to satisfy their own needs. And the nhra staff just hunkers down and tells the racers they have bushwacked to send in letters pleading their cases. It's total BS!

I have copied all of this material and plan on presenting it to a newly promoted nhra executive.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bruce

Why don't you share some of the finer points of what you plan on sending to NHRA, just so that we all can get on the same page.

I would like to see some solid ideas of what to do, not just saying that they (NHRA) have not done this or have done that.

I hope that you will provide some of what you are going to tell them.

How about using the top 5 hitters (or less for combo's that are one off's, i.e. Shelby, etc.) from each combo to run an average, instead of the everyone running that particular combo?

How about counting all runs at National Events instead of Qualifying and Eliminations?

How about not counting Record attempts when you go 1.40 under at Divisional races?

How about using 1000 ft times at National Events to get ride of the sandbagging?

How about having to tear down before you receive an Automatic hit?

Just a few things that I have been thinking about, anybody else have some ideas to kick around?

R J Sledge

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Hey Dick, I forgot about the Altitude Factor situation that you mentioned, there needs to be a way to formulate something so that all Runs at National Events, both Sea Level and Altitude events get figured in.

The formulas that they use are extremely out dated and they need attention.

Any ideas?

R J

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bruce,

I am not a racer, and have no dog in this hunt, but I would like to submit a suggestion for your consideration.

To wit:
Please include with your laundry list of modifications/improvements to the AHFS, a suggestion that the business of factoring an engine in a PARTICULAR CHASSIS, and not "across the board" is illogical to the point of bizarre. An engine has no knowledge of what kind of chassis it's installed in and unless there are OVERT problems in constructing suitable headers, will make virtually the same flywheel horsepower in ANY Stocker chassis.

The racers I have talked to all agree that somebody with some axe to grind got this system into place, (were trhe racers polled???) and it surely does not contribute to a "level playing field."

Nobody seems to know where this came from. Do you know?

Thanks much for your time and attention.

Bll

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bill, It makes perfect sense. Take a T/SA 283/220 wagon that goes 1.15 under and then subtract the weight difference of a Chevy II in I/SA with the same motor . Now look at the index difference. Tell me if the Chevy II needs hp put on it.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Guys,

My point is the version of the AHFS that we the racers approved should be the HP system that we use. Not this unauthorized and unpublished (in advance) version that Wesley has come up with. Just read the first version of the AHFS that we all approved and then read Wesley's twisted version. And remember he has made all these changes and not given any advanced notification of the changes. That should be enough to get your blood boiling.

What would I want to add to the version that we approved? Nothing!

You can forget about all the trick math and weather factors because that would require an expenditure of nhra cash!

The original system was working as well as can be expected. It has been said many times, that there is no one system that will cure the HP factoring problems. The original AHFS was doing the job it was intended to do but the powercrats at nhra, like Wesley, won't leave it alone.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Mark; is the glass half full or half empty? Sounds to me like the indexes are at fault. How can an engine make more horsepower in a wagon than it makes in a light two-door sedan?

It can't.

If there's a problem relative to the index, look at the index, not the horsepower involved; you KNOW the output of the engine doesn't change from chassis-to-chassis. The problem of inappropriate indexes is spread throughout the entire class system. To predicaate a horsepower factoring system that dictates factrored horsepower based in the vehicle the engine it's in makes NO sense to me.

Looks like NHRA needs to adjust the index, if it's wrong (and it sure looks that way.)

The situation you point out clearly illustrates that the indexes in those two classes are badly skewed.... one of them, at least, is too fast, or too slow. They need to fix THAT, not continue this fairytale of engines changing output depending on their 'host vehicle." You KNOW that doesn't really happen.

Looks like we have the tail wagging the dog, here.

As I said, I am not a (class) racer, so maybe I shouldn't even be posting on this; it just seemed that if Bruce was actually going to address the AFHS issue with the Ivory Tower, then this issue could be a part of that, But, since he hasn't replied to my post, perhaps he has no interest in making this a part of his presentation; I can only guess. It could be that he doesn't want to "muddy the water" by presenting too many issues at one time, or perhaps he agrees with you that incorrect indexes can be dealt with by skewing the horsepower numbers in SELECT vehicles, and not applying the factored HP for an engine "across the board."

Maybe he'll let us know how he feels about this, one way or the other.

Again, thanks for your time and input.

Bill

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

I think the main reason for NOT combining FI cards with Carb cars is rather simple...if you consider that the developement, R&D, etc on the carb cars vs FI cars are not the same....Carb cars have almost reached their potential, while FI cars with fuel injection, software programs, etc have far more future R & D to improve performance.

With all (blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, cyl heads, cams, etc) assumed legal for both, the FI cars will continue to find greater performance improvements beyond these hard parts. Also as someone has noted, a FI car has a far greater advantage with weather changes, a fact that makes a carb car far more difficult to correct for, yes you can change jets, timing, but you can't change the fuel curve, or timing curve, reprogram the software, as a FI car.

just my 2 cents....

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Hey Keith why can't you change the fuel curve on a carb via jets,metering rods, air bleeds etc?Distributors have provisions for timing advances,retards, and some manufacturers have programmable timing controls for advances or retards.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Keith, please re-read mine and Evans comments on this subject. All combo's are still evolving, higher and slower classes, it's not limited at all. FI cars are not 'magic' and will vary (sometimes worse) than any carb car. Once they are mapped and programmed ya leave em alone, just like a carb car except for a possible altitude 'tune up' change (i.e. jet change).

R.J., You talk about "FI hp factors that don't equate" well check out ANY Indy qualifing sheet to find a bunch of carb combo's, in the top half, that ya gotta wonder about!

Thx. B

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

What a complex mess, Class racing has become. Unfortunately everyone is right, as far as they go.
A motor makes the same HP regardless which car, Yes
The body shape can affect the performance Yes
Choices of transmissions available affects some cars more than others Yes PG versus Turbo Vs Stick.
Too many bogus hp motors. TRUE
TOO many new underfactored motors from the factory each year given low hp to make them popular and suddenly kill off the OLD stuff.... TRUE
The indexes are off. Depends on which cars you use as the ideal car for the class performance.

Ideas. AH is stable one car, on combo class, no factoring differences and it works, YES

Should all classes be one car, one carb, one trans variable ? NO the issue is all the above and without a real committe or dictator who cares which cars are bogus no changes will stop the smart people who can afford to change cars from winning by changing cars, motor, trans,. It becomes an expensive proposition as factoring in the inferior methods used so far( mainly do to sensitivity of system being so slow) leaves the fast stuff dominating till the whole field is replaced with the originally bogus car and by that time a new "baby" with bogus hp is allowed to become the killer. etc etc. 400 motor, inj 350,inj305 now fords next?
Starting point should be to ......Recognize it is only a sport run by business men not racers. They officially care about how many people show up and until that number drops the methods will persist. Unfortunately Class racing will be replaced by more Bracket programs... T/S,T/D. Unless the factories and sponsors push for changes we as small people cannot negotiate.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bill,

Reply to your post? Ivory tower?

I have told you exactly what I think about the AHFS. And yes it would help if you were a racer because you would then have a serious investment in the proper administration of the AHFS.

Many racers have been had by the latest round of AHFS hits, and they ain't happy about it either. So maybe you should go sit on the Ivory Tower. Or, regardless of your disclaimers, get a Class car.

Re: AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation
 

Bernie

You are correct my friend about the Indy Qualifying, but I was referring to the Divisional races where they can let it all hang out without fear of going too fast. That is they can go up to 1.40 under and not worry, but its just my observation.

I will also agree that there are both carb and FI combo's that need to be dealt with. Sometimes we all look at things from different sides of the fence, I just would like some sort of legitimacy when it comes to combo's that have not been reined in.

RJ

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Bruce said,

"Reply to your post?" Yes; I appreciate the time you took to reply to my post.

Then, Bruce said, "Ivory Tower"? My reference to an "Ivory Tower" was a mildly sarcastic comment on the "powers that be" in Glendora, who don't seem to understand or care much about the finer points of what a mess they have on their hands in regard to the AFHS. It, no way, was aimed at you, Bruce,or any other racer. I'm not sure you took it that way, but that's what it was; a reference to the Druids...

Then, Bruce said, "I have told you exactly what I think about the AHFS."
That you did, but my request was not related to your opinion of the AHFS, but rather, an ancillary problem with the way horsepower factors are applied to select cars instead of ALL cars with that engine. I was in hopes that maybe you could include your thoughts about that situation along with the changes you were suggesting (which BTW, I completely agree with.) For all I know, you may think it's perfectly okay to keep that system; I was asking if it was something you could try to get changed (if that is your desire), since I didn't think the drivers were polled about going to that system before they made that change.
You never addressed that issue in your response. I'm not sure what that means, RE: YOUR feelings about that issue.

Then, Bruce said, "And yes it would help if you were a racer because you would then have a serious investment in the proper administration of the AHFS."

I can't blame you for feeling that way, but unless I am mistaken, there is a Class Racer BB for "racers only," and participation on that board is limited to people who, like you, currently have a permanent number and campaign a Class car. This board, by default, would seem to be for the rest of us, who are serious about seeing things done "correctly," and who care deeply about the health of the sport. We have opinions that,ofttimes come from many years of careful scrutiny of the rules and practices of NHRA Class racing, and you know what they say about opinions... well, that was mine. In short, I make no apologies for posting my opinion here, but realize that that's all it is..... just MY opinion. Yours may vary.

Then, Bruce said," Many racers have been had by the latest round of AHFS hits, and they ain't happy about it either."

I don't know what that was in reference to, but I am 100% in agreement with that statement. You said it in a manner that made it seem that I was somehow contentious about it, but that is ~so~ not true. I heartily support what you are trying to do, and agree that something needs to be done. I am in no way disagreeing with you on any of your AHFS stance. In fact, I applaud it!

Finally, Bruce said, "So maybe you should go sit on the Ivory Tower. Or, regardless of your disclaimers, get a Class car."

I have NO IDEA where that came from. I didn't disagree with anything you said, and don't understand your attitude in writing something like that. I surely didn't mean to offend you in any way; I was just asking if you'd be interested in addressing the problem (as I see it, it's a problem) of the way they assign factored horsepower to select cars, when someone "earns" an increase. That was ALL I was asking.

Insofar as getting a Class car, I wish with all my heart that I could afford to go Class racing, but it's not in the cards for me,. The fact that I can't afford to build a legitimate Class car doesn't mean, however, that I cease to care about what goes on. I have some close friends who DO have Class cars and I see what they are up against with this ridiculous AHFS, and am eager to do what I can to help change it. I guess whether my opinion is a valid one or not, depends on how much of it somebody agrees with. Having been a tech at local strips (as an NHRA Area Tech Advisor 1960-1964 in Div. IV), racing a Class car for several years, and helping friends with their Class cars over the years, and attending NHRA drag races "religiously" since 1955 (no typo) gives me a perspective that a lot of folks may not have. Maybe my opinion MIGHT be worth something, even though I don't currently race anything but a Bracket car.

At any rate, it's all still just my opinion.... nothing more.

Thanks for listening. :)

Bill

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Bill, Very fairly stated.