Cheating
 

This thread is just for Ed O'Brien, so we don't fill up other threads. :D

>> Do you really think there are people that can cut better lights week in and week out than S/C racers with cars built with soft converters and delay boxes ?

Which S/C drivers? Yes, there are people that can cut better lights week in and week out than some S/C racers. (Delay boxes, I understand, but I'm not sure where soft converters enter into it...)

What's the season average reaction time for an average S/C racer?

Yup, IHRA caught one Stocker guy and one Modified guy. I don't really think cheating is rampant. I do think there are some guys who have some things figured out that other people haven't even thought of yet.

Just my opinion.

Re: Cheating
 

According to "the Racers Mind" work book I have these are the following Averages: Stock .0296, Super Gas .0196, Super Comp .0186, Super Stock .0318, Pro Stock .039


Travis Sorokie
5919 SS/KA

Re: Cheating
 

I think he's talking about the infamous "dirty dozen" banned from " NORWALK "

Re: Cheating
 

it was to my understanding that some returned and raced at norwalk earlier this year!

Re: Cheating
 

From what I was told Mr Bader was not vey happy
about it.I WONder what NHRA did or said to him about the situation?


Ed F.
NHRA #15
IHRA #1945
T/SA

Re: Cheating
 

>> According to "the Racers Mind" work book I have these are the following Averages: Stock .0296, Super Gas .0196, Super Comp .0186, Super Stock .0318, Pro Stock .039

Hm! I find some of those numbers very surprising. Did it say what the sample group was, or how those averages were derived? Glad you found that. Pretty interesting.

For what it's worth Ed, the year I footbraked in Super/Pro, my season average was an .017, just under the noted Super Comp average above. I'm sure there are plenty of guys sharper than I on the tree.

Re: Cheating
 

We have R.T.'s published(from drag race central) data from the last few years. Those with 80 or so minimum hits are

Peter Biondo.. .025 avg. .... .062 worst lite
Clint Blezien... .034
Al Corda........ .039
Bernie Cunningham .030
Mark Faul..... .029.... 44 events
Dan Fletcher... .028.... 192 lights.... 47 events
Kevin Helms.... .031
Clark Holroyd.. .037..... 2 reds
Jody Lang .... .025... with ZERO redlights!!!... 29 events
Tody Lang ..... .028 .... 3 reds
Chad Loge.... .045
Keith Lynch.... .049
James Paul.... .025... 2 reds....060.. worst lite!
David Rampy..... .033... 44 events
Eric Waldo..... .039
Steve Wann..... .047
Ben Wentzel......047 .... 2 reds
Mickey Whaley... .040... 2 reds..
Lee Zane......... .022... 4 reds... 40 events

This average was the result of ALL published r.t.'s. Some probably shouldn't have been included, but oh well.
Many times the first two rounds info wasn't published. Maybe Nitro Joe can get more info. Our owner LIKES DATA!!!

These were some of the best with a large number of hits. I have no idea where "The Racers Mind" got their numbers.

Many more could have been included with 60 or more "hit's" but I wasn't typing them all.

Re: Cheating
 

Red lights were not included in the average. These were some of the lesser number of redlights.

Re: Cheating
 

It would be interesting to see the averages from 5 years ago compared to 2007,,may give me a winter project to try and average RT of stock at the nationals In Nhra from 2002 and then do the same from 2007,,,,,,Im guessing,,,(((and this is just a guess))) after prior studying of past RT`s that I will find a solid .03 decrease in RT`s from 2002 compared to 2007`s,,,,,,,,and I would just about bet that the S/C would not have increased any,,,,,,,,, I know this may belong on the other topic BUT,, if that statement would turn out to be true,,,,My assumptions on the 2 steps would be accurate

Re: Cheating
 

Isaac, that's some pretty cool sh** !! I've been saying for a while now just how good the Stk/SS crowd has gotten with reacts, ya look at the Sunday eliminations and you'll see just how we've EVOLVED, even beating the box guys.

Tim, that's a lot of work but I can say right now, LED's, it's got nothing to do with your witch hunt. The box guy's just take out more delay and we all got better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Two steps have been around for ages, c'mon be fair with your think'in. You need something else to do. LOL

What happened 10-15-20 years ago has nothing to do with what happens now, it's called EVOLUTION, I believe the opposite would put us back in the stone age, we'll continue to use technology whether YOU like it or not !!! Keep up or light your fires with a flint.

I think that this years Reading race was the best collection of reacts I've ever seen ! A great contest if I've ever seen one!
B

Re: Cheating
 

Thanks, Issac
If I counted & did my math right I get a .03436 average for the 19 guys you listed... Interesting.. I wonder where that .0296 avg for stock came from? Must be a bunch of guys doing better than the 19 that Issac listed to pull the avg down to .0296.

Re: Cheating
 

Bernie,

Tim has been around longer than you may think, and as much as you think that the 2-steps do not make a difference... they do. You may have been around for a long time, but in the days of the incandescent bulbs it was much easier to anticipate the bulb than it is nowadays. I know this because when I was in junior dragsters I used this to my advantage. You could watch the different stages of the bulb and react on on a particular spot within one bulb, but the LED's do not allow this, and in juniors my avg reaction time was around .020.

Take the 2-step out of your car and see how consistent you are one weekend.

I won a lot of cash in my street truck the last year of incandescent bulbs, but it took me until this year to adjust.

Whether or not stock allows it, I will use the stock 2-step on our stick car. And it makes a BIG difference in the light. The big names will still win, but you will see a much smaller difference in the MOV.

Re: Cheating
 

I have not been to many races this year but did race E-Town last weekend. I saw SS make some runs and remember seeing an amazing number of .00 to .020 RT's. That was not normal for just a few years ago. I also have noticed that the average RT in Stock is way better than in the past. I see a lot of .020's and .030's Racing in ANY category has gotten tougher over the years.

Re: Cheating
 

Some clarifications that I think are important:

1- The primary reason a two-step improves consistency has more to do with accurate staging depth and accurate launch rpm, than with "the hand is quicker than the foot". Particularly when a track is hot, as it was in Englishtown last week, you can see the footbraker's front tires sliding into the beam, not bumping in. And of course, the second you take your eyes off the tach, the rpm changes.

2- IHRA's "Diry Dozen" were using a Matty Box, which timed the run and cut off the engine near the finish line to prevent breaking out. It had nothing to do with reaction times.

3- The IHRA stock elim racer caught with a delay box was reacting to the top bulb, then the delay box released the car a full second later, which is easy to spot if you look for it. This guy was spotted by one of the Emmons brothers, who protested immediately.

4- The Super category cars are fast enough to go red reacting to a .400 pro tree. The faster stockers could go red on a .500 pro tree, and a blinder effectively creates a pro tree. But somewhere around j-k-l stock, these cars need short front tires and other tricks to get them to cut a decent light on the flash. I don't see how the slow stockers could benefit from using a delay box, except when reacting to the top bulb, which as I said would be very easy to spot.

5- The very best average on Isaac's list belongs to Lee Zane, who is usually in K/SA. Clint Blezien and Jody Lang are also in slower cars.

My conclusion is that delay box use is not the explanation for the top racer's success. It's not impossible, just not likely. In fact, my observation is that the pro-sportsman racers are extra cautious about being legal, as they are more likely targets for scrutinty, and could lose their sponsors and livelihood if caught cheating. This may also explain why they are most vulnerable in heads-up situations. Perhaps it's a combination of practice, practice, practice and some natural ability thrown in.

I know I haven't persuaded Ed O'Brien, but I hope casual readers will consider these points.

Re: Cheating
 

Ed u are a joke

Re: Cheating
 

Ed u couldn't win on a by run... So why are u so concerned? Stop trying to always rock the boat. Have a beer sit back and listen to the ba ba ba ba sound of the two step in the lane next to u as they leave on the top, middle and bottom bulb in your small head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The stats quoted from The Racer's Mind are not complete averages. They are average winning reactions taken from round three through finals at national events in '05. Their purpose in the workbook is to help drivers choose their target reaction.

Bruce Deveau

Re: Cheating
 

Mr. Ed in my neck of the wood the " the box class" is call pro which was heavy.. That is a non electronics class. U should try it some time I think they have there own forums. Man that would give us a break from u. By the way stock is not a non electronics class

Re: Cheating
 

Ed,
They feel like it will handicap them when it happens and they don't want change. I've heard so much bitching here locally on the subject it's ridiculous. Fact is our electronics track champ last year won just as many races with his wife's Durango as he did with his super gas Camaro. Good racers will always win more racers than mediocre races and that's all there is to it. Look at Rampy going from Stock to Comp and he still is a threat in either same as Lee Zane and others.

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Tony.....I agree with you 100%, I think you have explained your view, which even Ed would be hard pressed to ignore.

Re: Cheating
 

I have been EVERY RT stat for the last 2 years in Comp, SS & Stock, you would shake your head at some of the lights recorded in my stats of RT's
Just a couple of AVG's:
Speed Racer, 37 runs, 1 perfect light, 1 red light and 36 green, .020 avg, not bad at all

Racer X, 51 runs, 1 perfect light, 2 red lights and 49 green, .025 avg, not bad at all

Names of these 2 racers was hidden to not offend anybody. Anybody wishing to know their avg's feel free to e-mail me, but i wont give you another drivers avg.

Re: Cheating
 

I don't remember the redight.

SPEEDRACER

Re: Cheating
 

keith it will cost u $20 for me to keep this ed character off of ur azz i will bill u

Re: Cheating
 

Why do we want change now???

Re: Cheating
 

Nitro Joe, please contact me, I have tried 2x and no response, may have the wrong information or is it "persona non grata".lol

XCHAMP1317@aol.com

Joe DeMarzo

Re: Cheating..To Ed
 

There will always be those who will resort to cheating. Some start at an early age in elementary school. That does not say that all winners cheat, now do they? I've raced since 1970 from karts to Nascar SLim Jim All Pro series, NASCAR Busch and Cup series(crew member), NHRA and others. I've seen em get caught in all of them. I can't tell you how many times I saw NASCAR officials confiscate parts from almost every team on the circuit in the 80's and 90's. I've even been bounced from tech for valve stem diameter being .008 too small in the Parts Pro Truck series after winning and another time becuase tech man didn't measure valve lift correctly and had to be shown how to properly measure by another engine builder, it then checked legal. I don't think anyone here will deny that that there has been cheating but I don't think that's an all inclusive way to get to the winners circle. Do you?

Re: Cheating
 

Do you think that if NHRA OR IHRA caught someone cheating it would turn out like this?

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/9/6767.html

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Whew! 100M is a BIG fine. And we complain about the $250 oildown penalty :^)

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Hey Ed,

Just for the record I run right off the footbrake in my stocker and my RT average fro 3 years is a .019 with 1 red and 1 perfect light so I am I cheating nope I just know how to hit the tree and thats that so HAVE A NICE DAY...................


Jeremy Waibel
NHRA B/SA 2231

Re: Cheating
 

Ed,
Here is where you and I disagree. I don't think two steps and buttons allow for more cheating than anything else. I also don't think you'd stop cheating by eliminating two steps and buttons. I could care less either way just give me the rules and I'll work my butt off to be fast. I run a speed shop and it would be pretty shamefum for my car not to be fast. That's the reason I still haven't race an NHRA or IHRA race yet. When it's fast, I'll be there til then I'll keep working on it and flogging it. I sure didn't think things had progressed so far when I quit back in 1979. I know now how wrong my thinking was.

Re: Cheating
 

Jeremy, do you know people can see how you did the last three years. Please add them up again.
You might be close to a .070 in NHRA competition.

Greg

Re: Cheating
 

Beard you doubled so you must be cheating!!!!


Herb Jr

Re: Cheating
 

How do we find our RT??

Re: Cheating
 

Joe , you can go to archives in DRC and get it if you go past the second round. And if you didn't go to the third round then it would suggest you didn't do so good.

Greg

Re: Cheating
 

Ed, is there ever a time when the sky isn't falling?..IAAAYBWOW.

Re: Cheating
 

yep,,that the one thing you have to be carefull when class racing,,,,,you can say your good,,,,,we all can see just how good

here is the link for me,,,,I really didnt think I sucked this bad,,,but the stats dont lie,,,,,,really,,Im not as bad as the results let on,,,,I seem to have that "deer in the headlite look" whenever Im at a national ,,,,My wife told me the last time out,,she was going to knock on the window and scream "GO!!!!"


but seriously,,,,,if you guys check it out....look at the quick rod stats on me,,,,it was funny as hell,,,,,,,,no throttle stop in a car thats runs 4.90`s in the 1/8------stumbled around and nearly won that thing


http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCRe...s=&Match=Exact


go to www.dragracecentral.com-------look at the top in small letters "advanced search"-------either type in persons name,,,car number,,,,or other info that would identify and you can see about everything they did,,,,especially the nationals...........I used this search aid all the time to see who Im talking to,,,check on stats of cars Im interested in buying that "supposedly run 1.2 under????",,,,,its a great tool,,,,,they are getting better everyday,,,,a few years back,,you couldnt really see the divsionals,,,,,,especially Ihra,,,,now they are posting nearly every race,,,,,,,,,,,just go to the sportsman stats lower on the page and start looking


you know..a .019 average should win you a bunch of rounds

Re: Cheating
 

Joe,,here`s your stats,,,,,,



http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCRe...=Adv&x=128&y=5

nice job on the lites at atco !!! .01714 average


mike beard carried a .029 average in the first race at jackson,,,,and a .023 average for the second race,,,,,only could see the last 4 rounds at each one,,,,,,,BUT Im sure mike will tell you the same,,,,you carry a .019 average,,,should be winning some cash,,,,,if your not,,,,you may have done something to make the Race Gods very angry--------On the otherhand,,,got to have luck,,,,,its not neccesarily what lites you have,,,,its when you have them

Re: Cheating
 

>> Beard you doubled so you must be cheating!!!!

Sure as h*ll wasn't on the starting line! I was junk this weekend. Great car, actually remembered how to drive the stripe against the fast cars, and had a lot of luck. But MAN, appreciate it Herb! Everybody always accuses the same guys of cheating all the time. Always wondered what I had to do to get that "compliment"! ;) LOL

That was more .040 lights in a weekend than I could remember... Jackson was 'loose' for me last year, too. I actually had an .052 3rd round against Roland, but something happened and he got zeroes on the scoreboard and timeslip for an ET, so we had to re-run. I said, "Great! I don't want that light on my record!" ;) My stats aren't as good as they used to be, as the Volare reacts about .03 slower than my Duster and Terry's Dart Sport. It's been... challenging. I'd say Jackson's rollout is about .02 slower than Piedmont's, too.

>> you carry a .019 average,,,should be winning some cash

You should be winning more than just cash with an average like that. The year I footbraked in Super/Pro, I averaged an .017 in that class. My season average in the footbrake classes from 1994 to 2004 was between .021 and .025, with round-win percentages from 79-83%. Unless you're in a Box class, then yes, reaction time generally is tied to wins.

Unless you're Scott Macy, who has arguably driven the best of anybody in class this year, but has been a magnet for finding the guy in the other lane with a double-oh package. They did it two him twice this weekend! Sheesh.

>> the question about why they don't allow Two-steps in no box racing ?

They do allow two-steps in No-Box racing, which is transbrake/2-step, like Super Stock. They do not allow 2-steps in Footbrake racing. People probably didn't answer the question earlier because it didn't make any sense.

Re: Cheating
 

Ed,
Some tracks do allow it. Our local track here doesn't because some winning racers didn't want to lose their advantage. It had nothing to do with cheating because they aren't up enough on how to cheat in that area. The one racer they all think is cheatiing is just a really good racer and has won just as many races with his wife's personal Durango as he has with either his footbrake or electronics bracket car. He also won several heads up big tire racers by treeing the hell out of racers that had much faster cars. He is a smart racer and uses his head and talent to win. He recently won Super Gas at a Division 4 points meet. He is a good guy but is very competitive and not liked by some mainly because he is such a serious competitor.
I do know there is cheating/rule bending/gray area advantages that some racers are participating. Hell, that's part of it. I sell parts to help racers go faster and they often look to me to help them gain an advantage. All part of the game, it's in every form of competition.
I look for every bit of power and way to be faster, more consistent and better every week that rolls by. It's just the way I am I just wish I had a bigger budget to work with..

Re: Cheating
 

For kicks and giggles I went back to 2005, (also included is the 2004 world finals at the Rock) the last year my brother raced before his mini-retirement. In national events (IHRA) he had 42 total lights that I could find on DRC with 1 red. His average was .0229 this doesn't include the divisionals (5 in total) in which he won 2. I would say his average with those included is probably a little lower. He had 5 lights over .037 and 23 lights under .020. It is possible to have stellar lights without cheating, it is called PRACTICE. He would hit the practice tree hundreds if not thousands of times a week. He knew what every little adjustment on the car would do for his reaction times. I think he's working on returning some time next season (took time off to stay home with his baby boy) Look out another Mitchell in the world!