Wondering what stock racers think
 

I am just wondering how stock racers feel about lowering the indexes. We have been given many upgrades yet the indexes stay the same. There are many that can run a second under and have to detune at races. The AHFS was designed for new cars and under rated combos. It does not take into the fact of people who work hard , test and spend lots of money to make their car go fast. So what do the people who race stock ... 1 or 2 tenths. Most everyone can run that far under. .. Thanks.
Gary Parker

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Not a fan of the idea.
I know of several people wanting to get into Stock Eliminator right now for the first time.
That idea could cause some possible newbies to lose interest because it just raises the costs.


Just my .02c

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Gary: There has been a lot of upgrades for Stock, but NHRA did the upgrades for the sake of making it easier or not having to check the parts associated with the upgrade. One upgrade that NHRA pushed through is allowing solid lifters where hydraulic lifters where and no HP added if you changed over either. I have a factory solid lifter engine and I didn't get any upgrade from NHRA's decision. So, for me to take one or two tenths away would be total "NO". NHRA should be more aggressive on doing their job of policing the HP of all the cars, we all pay for that service through our membership and entry fees.


Casey Miles
248H Stock

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

The way track prep is some times overlooked and people spin at the start, maybe they should add a tenth or two. Or NHRA could make traction control legal for all cars not just the EFI cars.

I'm hoping Indy track prep will be great so everyone will have the best chance to qualify for the "Big Go"

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

The indexes were lowered 3 tenths several years ago and it hurt the car counts. Some of the low budget guys parked their cars after that enhancement. I don't think lowering the indexes is a good idea. The smart move is for NHRA to better monitor the performance of the cars that consistently run at the top of the sheet and apply good sense in the factoring.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

There ya go!
And at the same time, stop certain Racers from "gaming" the system.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

X2!

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Good sense from NHRA...........LOL !

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Or NHRA could make traction control legal for all cars not just the EFI cars.

Since when is traction control legal on an EFI car. i believe you are talking about taking timing out at the hit or on fly by wire cars can program how much throttle % basically an electronic throttle stop, non EFI cars do this also but just old school mechanical stop. I know the black FAST box with traction control is not legal in stock. So what did you mean by EFI cars have traction control am i missing something?

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Agreed! Great post.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

The issue that Gary is raising is one that deserves consideration .
Let's face it ,stockers are going faster and , other than the AHFS
( which sometimes works and sometimes is circumvented ) there are no current answers .
To those that are against the proposal , I understand your concerns. However , keeping the " old " indexes did not help IHRA ( although there were other issues ). Larry's thought is valid and is another problem for another thread and Billy , as always , is on target with his " gaming the system " comment .
Granted , 3 tenths as dictated last time , would be hard to swallow for many racers but 1 tenth would only help what I see as a growing concern .

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Stop the Indy nonsense
If you 120. Under You Get The Horsepower
It’s the only race that would fix some of theSOFT combos

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I have never understood the logic behind lowering indexes. As others have said, it eliminates the poor guys who don't have a lot of money, but want to experience the pride of making their low-buck stuff capable of running the index, and therefore, able to compete. So a guy runs 1.10 under; who cares? If somebody else runs 1.11 under, he qualifies below him. It has always seemed to me like NHRA has deemed 1.0 second under to be some kind of arbitrary "threshold". The only remotely justifiable argument for lower indexes is that it "keeps out the riff-raff", and I consider that to be nothing more than arrogance on the part of the racers who feel that way. Indexes will NEVER eliminate sandbagging.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Gary, Probably won't sell an index reduction at the present time. Some of the IHRA guys want to cross over. 4-5 tenths would be a big hit for some.
How about this? Raise the hp hit threshold on more tenth...Then STOP, STOP, STOP the loosening of Stock tech rules. Racers will always find the 'trick of the week" anyway. They don't need any more help from NHRA.
Oh, I just noticed you addressed Stock racers..Oh well.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

The only remotely justifiable argument for lower indexes is that it "keeps out the riff-raff", and I consider that to be nothing more than arrogance on the part of the racers who feel that way. Indexes will NEVER eliminate sandbagging.

Really...I saved 3 years to have my engine fixed so I could go back out and race. I started with a camaro that ran 4 to 5 under .worked my *** off testing on a very limited budget to make my car faster. We are a performance based class. If you knew me you would know I would like as many people at the races as possible. It has been said that lowering them would keep people away. I know personally I am not going to some because I triggered it once by .005 when the air got real good overnight at Epping. Now if I had a heads up run from another fast car in the class it could happen again. what do I get for all my hard work is horsepower. I also never mentioned 3 tenths, I do agree that is too much. And yes it would be wonderful if we had someone like Famer to have a better handle on factors. Traction problems really have to do with your dial. would not matter the index. I am wondering how many stockers are out there that can not run a tenth under. It does not always cost money to pick a car up. But it helps. Trust me I have one of the smallest budgets there is. I hope the riff raft come race with us. All are welcome by me

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

This is a terrible idea in my opinion, funny how all the "fast" guys are just willing to give up a couple tenths for the good of the system. I dont think you thinking of the guys that on a good day are 4-5 under, but out having fun anyway. Stock eliminator is supposed to be an entry level class. How about the guys that think they are so fast, go run your car out at a national or divisional and get the H.P that your combo really needs anyway? if you want to slow your combo down and get H.P thats on you.Dont make the slower guys suffer for it.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Another issue that should be looked at regarding lowering the indexes is that the liberalizing of the rules definitely helps the high HP combos much more than it does the lower HP combos. Solid lifters and roller rockers did absolutely nothing for my stuff.
And before someone goes saying that "the AHFS will take care of that", it doesn't. The AHFS does a much better job of putting HP on combos that are going too fast than it does giving HP BACK to combos that aren't.
The AHFS needs to be "tweaked" to work at a faster rate and compensate for the "throttle-stop" Racers.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

You missed my point, but that might be my fault. I was not in any way saying that I agreed with the "riff-raff" logic. I completely disagree with it. But it is a reality that we have to contend with. Like you, I have a very limited budget and in the past have resorted to things like used and factory rebuilt parts (think rebuilt roller lifters). What I was trying to say is that a lot of "checkbook racers" think that because they can go 1.25 under (often with a car they know nothing about), they don't need to think about the poor guy who's spending every dime he can afford to run a tenth under the index. They qualify well, not because they work hard and understand the theory behind what they're doing, but because they can just buy whatever they need to do so. Again, I don't see how lowering the index does anything but hurt the guys who use brains and sweat to make their car fast enough to run the index.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

For all to come and enjoy, split the difference: Add .15 to the indexes to help out the lower budget and cross overs.......change AHFS hit to 1.50 under that's .15 more than current, change the review to 2 1.25 unders, with ahfs average going up to 1.05 for change from .85.

HP reduction could use some serious help. Its pretty rough as is.

There, I think I like it, at least I like it more than the current AHFS formulas.

Eric

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I agree with a 1 tenth reduction and leaving the AHFS triggers right where they are.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I agree with my brother Gary. The index's are a joke where they are at. Dropping the index's a tenth is not going to change a thing for the guys at the bottom of the list They will still be there but only now 3 or 4 under. As far as guys quitting because they lowered the index a few years ago. I have been doing this most of my life ( I'm 62 ) and don't know anyone that stopped because they lowered the index's. Lets face it the age of us class racers left and NHRA has been the real reason why most have quite. I said it on here a few years ago. It sucks I'm addicted but my drug dealer really doesn't want me around anymore. How many cars would be at nationals if they took the limit off and we still had the sponsors that have been chased off.

The real Stock Eliminator died years ago!!! Stock is just the name they still use for our class. As they say STOCK has left the building. Not something I wanted but it's the reality of it. For those of you that are key board racers with an opinion maybe you should get to a race and talk to the top half of the field. How many are 100 lbs plus over with extra oil and the timing turned 10 degrees out running an air filter to slow their cars down so not to go 1 second under. That's great until you get a heads up. As Gary said he may not hit some races because he already triggered it once. He has my Corvette that I bought and raced just a few years back. I bought the car from a nice guy who couldn't qualify at indy with it. He told me it was a tough combo and it had been factored to high. That same car now goes 10:70 in G/SA with ease. Not just because of money spent on it. It's because of what we have learned threw the years and testing. If you don't have a clue ask others for help. Most of us old time stockers can't wait to tell you things that will help you go faster without spending big money.

Some of my 1969 camaro friends that race a 350/255 hp rated at 280 combo are concerned their combo is going to end up getting hp. With Sorensen willing to step on his a little. Is that combo overrated ?

James I disagree with you about Indy. It's the only national event where now we really can see who is the big dog in the class. In 2014 with dog poop air as you would say you went .951 under. It's now 4 years later I would hope you have picked it up even a little bit more. That would put you at 1.20 plus under in good air. Maybe your combo needs HP. LOL Billy most of the high HP cars already had solid lifters. The only thing roller rockers did was help in parts breakage. You also go pretty fast with a ( As you would call it) dime rocket. Why??? I already know the answer but maybe you could tell the others the little things you do to make the car run that fast that won't set them back big dollars. I have just started to race stock again. I bought someone else's car had the motor freshened up plus changed some parts. This last Saturday went testing at our local track. By the end of the day picked it up .09. It cost me $ 100 for the day between gas tires and entrance fee. No big changes just little things that I thought would help. There was only one other stocker there testing. For those that are running only a few under get out and test. Ask others for help with cheap stuff you can do to pick your car up. I hope some of the other racers who are sick of having to play the game pipe up on here. Barry

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

The cheapest way to go faster has always been to test and tune.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Another way that NHRA could clear up the HP issue is to go to cubic inch to shipping weight, that way NHRA wouldn't have to police anything as far as indexes. Qualifying would be a totally different list.


Casey Miles

248H Stock

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Cu in to weight would be the end of most fords as the heads suck (Cleveland exception) and you'd see a sea of sbc's just like comp elim.

Very few would benefit and lots would suffer with that.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Thank you know who you guys aren't still coming on here saying Stock is an entrance level class. Yah maybe 20 years ago. But that horse left the barn too with all the enhancements we have had in the last 20 yrs. There is nothing cheap about running a competitive Stocker today.

What's a set of rear tire cost?
How much is racing gas now?
What's it cost to get to these races?
Entrance fee?
The list could just keep on going. How are you getting the car there and where are you staying. Back when we started it was the entrance level class that paid money at the local track. But those days are long gone. Racing and entrance level really just doesn't belong together. Barry

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

How would that work? Like a modified eleminator set of rules? I don’t think that would work at all.

I think moving the indexes wouldn’t be the best thing right now. Maybe raise the instant hit to 1.25 or 1.30 under. Also the trigger to 1.10 under instead of 1.00.
Keep the index where it is now. Keep it a little easier for the guys that are starting out and the ones running the really tough combos.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

It's simple, just add a triple A Class at the top of the chain again and give everyone that should have more HP exactly just that,(with a full tech inspection of course) it seems to be to easy to protect combos with averages, loose that!
With one more Class you have room to move everyone thats need to be moved up one class and the Indexes are not lowered for any odd combo's.
It's had been said Stock is no way near what was intended and I agree to much goodies have been given, It's greed driven,everyone want's something for there combo without thinking about the long run,and NHRA just didn't stand it's grounds on this. (either)I am surprised there still is a Stock Class considering how close it is to SS.
My personal take on when the downfall started is actually when they allowed the combo's to move up one class, then the good combos took over most of the classes and many up to then decent car got somewhat obsolete(Bad for the Car count I think, not everyone want's a Camaro,believe it or not),I am pretty sure someone now gonna say, work on your stuff but we all know that ain't always the problem:)
And after the the hp committee "lost their job" this was over in my opinion!

I know this does nothing for the really slow guys,I think we can't do much for them until this turns to a real bracket racing.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Question for my good friends the Parker brothers, and I'm just asking so people will understand what you're wanting. I'm not arguing or disagreeing, more hoping to inspire a productive discussion.



What is your goal for lowering the indexes? What are you hoping to accomplish?






As for some of the other suggestions, I've been advocating one pound weight breaks starting at 7.0 pounds per factored HP for several years now, with A/S and A/SA being 7.0 pounds. As well as adding class eliminations after the first round of qualifying at every event.


Smart racers are always going to protect their combination, they'd be idiots, and real slow before long, if they didn't.


It should be painfully obvious to anyone who is thinking, we do not want another HP committee, not with NHRA people, and not with racers either. There probably are much better ways to manage the class than the current AHFS as it is, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Alan...
I know there are many that can go 1 second under. Most because of hard work. Just do not think it is right we get horsepower for all our hard work. Like I said the AHFS was for new cars rated way off and the under rated combos that have never been factored. If not lowering the indexes, raise the trigger. There are some combos that are hard to make run a second under. But over time most should be able to run pretty good if worked on. They take horsepower off cars that do not go fast. I wonder if some of those combos have not been thrashed on. Its easier to run slow and let NHRA take horsepower off. I know no answer is easy. But I was wondering how people with race cars felt. As we have been told for my 40 years of running stock. We are a performance based class. Thanks Alan

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Barry, I can't disagree with anything that you have said here. My issue with the indexes and the AHFS in the state they are in is that they are basically forcing any Newbies or Wannabees to race a new car, a 396, an LS or an LT-1. There's not much room to race some of the older combos that used to be interesting AND competitive. The AHFS helped the 302 FFFords and that was all. A suggestion made to the NHRA by Dwight, Yac and I to give obsolete and non-competitive combos back a significant but reasonable amount of HP fell on deaf ears. Oh well, that's for another thread.

Now, I want all of you "Bad Boys and Big Money Boys" to think about this idea for just a few seconds before you have to run back out to the shop to find more HP or call your Brokers to find more money;

Do away with the AHFS and Indexes as we know them.
All non-competitive combos get 15-20% HP reduction immediately.
At Indy, all Class Winners automatically qualify for the field, the rest of the 128 cars are furthest under the RECORD.
Class Winning ET BECOMES the RECORD. If no-one in Class, then previous record stands.
Following season (starting at the WinterNationals), the RECORD becomes the INDEX. The RECORD stands for 1 season (Winters to World Finals) but is set every year at Indy.
Anyone running under the RECORD at any NHRA sanctioned Event during the course of the year is subject to immediate tear-down AND HP hit.

Do this and I guarantee you that you'll find out just who the "Bad Boys" are out there.
I can also guarantee you that there will be a lot more diversity in Stock Eliminator and a lot less empty Classes at Indy.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Fair enough Gary.


My only question is, and again, not arguing, where does it stop?


Meaning, you worked hard to get to 1.00 under. But the reason is, you're never satisfied (mark of a good racer, never satisfied, always looking for that next 0.05) with how fast you are. So, when you get to 1.25 under, what then?


I agree, it IS, or maybe is supposed to be, we sure wish it was, a performance based class.


I'm asking "where does it stop?" because that's what a lot of people are going to want to know. When are you going to no longer ask for a lower index, or a higher trigger?


And honestly, I think that you're far better off, and more likely to get more people on board, in asking for the AHFS to be modified.


Maybe change the "look at the combination" trigger from 0.85 under to 1.05 under, and bump the instant to 1.25 under. It doesn't lower the indexes, so people struggling, for what ever reason, won't complain.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

If you have noticed at all the stock and super stock races. The ages of the people in the staging lanes are not getting any younger. Since Stock and Super stock is now just bracket racing, except for the few heads up at times. Why do you think that the local racers at all the tracks we are "guest" at don't want to build "class cars"? I think it's because of the cost of going "fast". If we had more "players" maybe the payouts and the Decal monies would be more. The whole system is broken. NHRA adds HP to a combo that goes to fast? WHAT? With no teardown! I say raise the trigger. Teardown for the combo that does go over. For racers that want to go fast, go! For people that don't want to spend the monies or don't have the time to test can still race. More racers, more entry fee, more pay out. Thanks for listening,

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I like the idea about a reduction for all non competitive combos.

I would describe a "non competitive combo" is any any combo that cannot run the slowest ( under index ) in the qualified field at the US Nationals.

Last year in Stock # 128 was .893 under.
There's the benchmark.

If no one with that combo can run .893 under then it qualifies for a reduction ( reduction % would be based on how much slower the combo actually runs)


Just my .02c

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

After taking a hit last season I am all for 1.20 instant hp and flushing everything else.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I wish they would raise the hit from 1.20 in mineshaft conditions.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I hope more real racers give feed back. Alan and Billy I'd be happy with doing either changing the index's or the AHFS. Alan I hope to make it to Bowling Green and Indy. Stop by and say hi if you go. Barry

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Good.......No a great post. You pretty much nailed it ! My only question is where are you going to find room on your wind shields and side glass for all of the "A"'s sooner or later ? AAA/SA !

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Many good points made. My only concern is that it's tough enough to build your own car even without someone always trying to move the goal posts.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I think this is a good idea.

If a racer goes to the effort to bring a combo to Indy, where everyone is running as fast as they can, and fails to qualify I think an instant reduction is justified.

I also agree with Daran that if mineshaft conditions are met then the 1.20 trigger should not be in effect.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I like, 1.20 under mandatory Tear-down and IF found to be within the rules. Then give the HP.