What to expect
 

Everyone,

I have had a number of calls from Stock racers trying to get clarification on possible changes for 2008 and what to expect. Therefore, as a follow up to Mickey's post, I would like to post for everyone's review where some of the issues currently stand.

1- Yes, the EFI one pound classes will go away and the EFI cars will be blended back into the regular
Stock classes.

2- Yes, all the existing Stock classes will continue to be 1/2 pound increments for 2008.

3- No, stick and auto's will not be combined for 2008. This or some other form of class consolidation is
being considered for the following year for both Stock and Super Stock. Further review by NHRA and
and racer input will be solicited during the upcoming season.

4- Yes, there will be a new 7.5 pound Stock class to allow the natural A cars to now move up one class.
There will not, however, be a 7.0 pound class.

5- All Stock and (Super Stock) class indexes will be adjusted by two tenths.

6- The issue of "E-shift" for older cars is still being considered. While this was previously approved for newer style
cars, it has not been legal in the older style. Consideration is now being given to allow it for either all or none.

7- Two-steps: While NHRA is still receiving input from NHRA racers on this issue, at the present time
55% of the 256 racers that have so far voiced their opinions want two-steps to be banned in Stock
across the board. Yes, this class could very well become a foot brake class.

As always, your input is welcomed.

Re: What to expect
 

Ok, so let me get this straight, we are talking about banning two steps but allowing electronic shifting?

I will say it again, I have had a two step in my car for starting line rpm control for a really long time (way back when MSD started selling the silly things) and I have yet to win an NHRA race with it.

What is the complaint with two steps?

Re: What to expect
 

Len, thanks for the insights, will the lowering of the index by 2 tenths (11.55 goes to 11.35) have an effect on the AHPS or will it stay as is with -1.15 being a trigger for review and -1.4 being an automatic? Thanks for your time.

Joe DeMarzo
#1317-B/SA

Re: What to expect
 

Len, can you update us on the SPEC Super Stock button(s)? I certainly would like to start testing yet this year if the button(s) are significantly different than what I have been using for 10 years....surely this issue has been resolved.

Thanks in advance

Re: What to expect
 

Len
Thanks for the post and for leting us know what to expect in 2008.

Re: What to expect
 

Len,

Thanks for the update.

Jim Marshall

Re: What to expect
 

len thanks for the information on the class racer fourm it is much appriciated.
my concern is the index adjustments of 2 tenths, this did not fix a problem in my eyes only made it worse. i run a ssja pontiac gto its a 1972 455 h-o motor i am factored at 330 hp and have to weigh 3800 pounds. in 2006 at brainered class there were 7 j cars 6 of us were in the 10.40 to 10.70 range off of an 11.30 index 1car was 10.30 and he wasnt stepping on it, this year he was in the 10.10 range there are several small block chevy combos capable of this look at nitro joes stat sheets. whats held these guys back is the fear of the autofactoring you just give them all another 2 tenths, either the horse power factors are going to have to be corrected. or this index adjustment will put the amc,fords,pontiacs and mopars out of the game.
thanks for listening jeff essmann ss/ja 5780

Re: What to expect
 

Len,

Thanks , again for the update...I have talked to many racers like myself who have had problems
sending anything to that e-mail address on Two-Steps !!! Is there another e-mail address we can use??

* thanks in advance for your help, keep up the good work.....

Dave...1033/stock (Dave Ribeiro)

Re: What to expect
 

Thank you Len for the news.
If indexes are dropped by two tenths, what is the triggers and minimum under for class.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA

Re: What to expect
 

If so...and if Jeff Teuton's statistic is right that would mean the FI cars would keep that advatage for a long time,and cars like some "papercars" or others that has been good at this AHFS-game would be able to dominate for a long time...

Re: What to expect
 

Len, Could you speak about changes in SS? Will there be GT classes up to match the SS 6.0 and down? These would help with use of the new cars as GT cars. Any combinations of classes or wts? Thanks Dick Butler.

Re: What to expect
 

Dropping the indexes would hopefully eliminate some of the sandbagging that happens at national and some divisional events. The AHFS will even out discrepancies over time (even though the system is "broken"). I wholeheartedly approve of this decision!

Would love to see 2-steps gone in Stock, but I think the 4-speed cars should still be allowed to run them.

Love the 7.5 lb/hp class addition. A 3800 lb. Hemi Challenger isn't fun for anyone! Is this class going to be called AA/SA??

No E-Shift for any cars in Stock! Make the drivers do their jobs! If you want the car to shift for you go race SS.

Re: What to expect
 

Well... with a 2 tenth index drop you can count us out for trying to step up out of pure stock for a while...

Re: What to expect
 

Len,

Are you saying that a simple majority will eliminate a rule that has been in place for over a decade???

It appears that your sample contains 256 responses. As per Nitro Joes Stats there where 1262 entries in Stock Eliminator in 2007.

Only 20.2% of the Stock Racers responded (IF you use Stock Competition Number information it would be much lower, but I will give NHRA the befit of the doubt) that is 256 out of 1262.

Only 141 racers requested the banning of 2 steps in Stock or 11.2% of Stock racers.

You can get what end result you desire by choosing the sampling group.

The casual poll being done on line with racers that have competed in the last 2 years doesn't agree with your numbers.

I don't know which is correct?

If you want your racer input to mean anything, then the voting should and must be accurate (see voting in Florida).

Will all rule changes be decided by a simple majority??

NHRA should enclose a stamped self-addressed envelope with National Dragster along with a ballot that includes the NHRA Competition Number on the ballot. You could request input on any number of issues and NHRA could have the results verified by an independent source, thereby taking away the appearance of a conflict in interest.

The racers could vote on items that affected the racers directly and they could depend on the results as being fair and accurate.

This is a win win situation for NHRA, because it increases the credibility of the NHRA no matter what the results are.

An emailed in racer input does not reflect the total body of Stock Eliminator racers and to use this, as the criteria for changing rules would be grossly unfair.

For the process to work it must be totally transparent and open to verification.

Bob

Re: What to expect
 

Wow, I agree with someone out West, way to call it Jared and a young guy too. Julie you raised him Right !

Re: What to expect
 

I asked Len that exact question via email - I hope I am not violating any trusts but I will paste my email question and his email response to me.

My email to Lenm:

I think it should remain but be a button on the brake pedal as ours and many others are.

Guys who run other classes which use a trans brake (SS, COMP, .90s) use a finger button which I believe gives them an advantage.

Our button also controls the start of several other digital functions (expensive MSD add-on) ? like taking timing out at the start on a crappy track, shift light, high rpm chip to not over rev motor.

If it is a close call I think it should stay.

I am a data analyst and if it were me I would see what classes want it what classes do not. I bet it is not an even spread across the classes.

So - 13 racers will make the difference.

I guess those in favor of the 2-step should lobby other racers to vote or change their mind to get the 13 vote swing.

Just my thoughts.


His email to me:

Ronald,

Thank you for your input.

It will end up more than a 13 vote difference. The votes received to date only includes input off the NHRA website posting. This survey will appear in the next National Dragster which generally increases the number of votes significantly.

No, if the number is a close call, it should not necessarily stay, especially as the number approaches 60%. In most cases a 60% / 40% split is a normal split on most issues and it is also an example of how regardless of what NHRA does, there are generally 40% of the racer population that do not agree with the decision.


Once again, thank you for your input.

Len

Re: What to expect
 

With a 2-tenths index drop and the existing rules for class singles (0.5 under minimum) - look for more non-class winners in single classes.

Any thoughts on refiguring event entry quotas for events running class eliminations for Stock or Super Stock - events like Norwalk in Div 3 where the quota was 80 entries only allow 10% of the cars in the country to compete. This is a part of the reason there are so many singles in the first place.

Re: What to expect
 

Len --Thanks a million for your post !!!!! Getting rules changes for 2008 in September has to be a first . Having access to this news early will help every racer -- even the ones who don't agree with the new changes.

Re: What to expect
 

Thanks, Len you are the voice of NHRA to us. Thank you! Tommy Gaynor

Re: What to expect
 

I'm not so smart so enlighten me, if i run B/SA or C/SA or D/SA which current FI cars would fit into each 1 of those classes? And will they weigh the same as they do now in those FI classes?

Re: What to expect
 

Mickey,

The way the weight breaks work now...

A/FIA = A/SA
B/FIA = C/SA
C/FIA = E/SA
... and so on

So a natural B/FIA car will run B/SA-D/SA.

Re: What to expect
 

I'm with steve polhill. I run about .25 to .30 under my index.So it will be hard on some guys like me sometimes to even get under the index. Maybe NHRA will look at this and maybe help us slower guys
jason ss2021

Re: What to expect
 

Ronald,

Thanks , for posting your e-mail to Len...I do think the final vote will be greater than people think... The only guys who want buttons are the button users and I bet there are less than 25% using them today....So, wait until the final votes are counted and you will see how many racers don't want them or electronics in Stock...

* Glad to see they finally dropped the 2 tenths gift they gave years ago, it was misleading to the real indexes....
* The 7.5 + 7.0 classes should keep those guys happy !!!
* E-shifts, are a tough one to call...
* Sticks and auto are a matter of time 2009...
* It would be nice to see a print out of what classes the EFI cars fit into the old stock classes
* Yes, getting rid of buttons is good for stock class...

* Nice first step by NHRA.... thanks, for listening to the racers...

Dave...1033/stock(RV-455)

Re: What to expect
 

Whats Wrong With The Current Program? Rule Changes Are Great If You Are The One To Benifit.leave The Classes The Way They Are.got A Button Great,want To Go Deep Great,letjust ****ing Race.what Bull****.

M/sa Joe Mocci

Re: What to expect
 

buttons or no buttons, makes no diff to me! BUT if buttons are to stay they should be activated by the FOOT.........................................index es are way too soft.................................the gap between A and B should be closed by .05.................................my 2cents..............................

Re: What to expect
 

I propose that we do away with all Fords. Lets vote. I see that GM and MOPAR combined currently have more than Ford.

Then when all the Fords are gone, I propose that we vote on eliminating all MOPAR cars (and trucks). Lets vote!

Then when that is done and it is all GM now, I propose that we do away with any car having less that 320 cubic inches. Lets vote!

Then when all 305 engine cars are gone, I propose all the rest of the small blocks be eliminated. Lets vote!

With that done It will be a GM Big Block only party. Oops I forgot those pesky 427's I say we get rid of them also. Lets vote!

NHRA is not a democracy it is a not-for-profit coporation (plus it is more like a republic anyway). I had no problem with deep stagers (we run our own race, in our own lane till the stripe), but they were only a small group, so we got rid of them. Does any one get my point? (rhetorical question)

Divide and conquer and we all lose in the end. Only when we stand together can we win.

I say remember the muffler issue! now a non issue, or is it?

Bill Grubbs

P.S. I hope no one took the voting of cars/trucks off the island/track seriously.

Re: What to expect
 

I would first like to thank Len for the update on possible rule changes for next year. This is a step in the right direction. We run stock for crying out loud. We don't need electronics and two steps, and magic buttons in our stockers. I do run one.....have to do what I have to do to be competitive, but I never really liked the idea at all.

Eshift is about the goofiest thing that I have heard of. Turbo Action says that it is a safety device, that the driver can keep both hands on the wheel. What bull****, have any of you guys lobbying for that ever driven a stick car???? I dropped a great super pro car to come join this party several years ago, and this has been headed in the wrong direction ever since. No electronics is getting this back to the way it should be.

Re: What to expect
 

Mickey, I'm gonna be on yer bumper....lol..if I can win dialed, maybe I can win heads-up!!!! peace and shoe polish grease.

Re: What to expect
 

Bob Mulry,

To assure you and others about the Class Racer poll. While no poll is a 100% accurate, we can assure all members that you can only vote once. Also, only active NHRA and IHRA members can vote. The poll clearly shows no consensus to change the current rule. We hope NHRA also uses these numbers in help making a informed decision.<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_41480", true); </SCRIPT>

Re: What to expect
 

So, for 2008, it appears that only heads-up races will always require both cars to take a shot at the tree.

Handicap racing will continue to have only the first car leaving to always take a shot at the tree. The second car leaving, will continue to have freebies.

[insert huge sigh and a shaking of the head here] The lunacy and remnants from 50 years ago continues.

Re: What to expect
 

Admin,
Clearly your poll shows more racers want a change than to leave the rule as is. 46% want it as is ,that means that 54% want one of the other choices and that is a vote for change. I like both associations and race them both, but this is not an IHRA issue, so don't expect NHRA to use this poll very much.

It also seems obvious to me that the Administration of this forum has a strong opinion to not make a change to the rule, it's your forum and just like NHRA you can run it as you please. Don't take it personally, but that is my observation.

Yes I voted and yes I want a change to the current rule.

Dave

Re: What to expect
 

What Crap..I feel like I'm back in First Grade when Johhny got caught cheating and the WHOLE Class paid for it. If NHRA has a problem with the Button, then make it spec button and do away with the BS adjustible ones, and make only activated by the pedal release............. my 2 cents

Re: What to expect
 

Put the button on the brake.

I wish I new what problem we are trying to solve.

Does anybody know why NHRA is considering this?

Re: What to expect
 

The only fair way to vote is to mail a ballot to everybody in the country that has an NHRA Stock Eliminator #. Make 2 choices, electronics or no electronics, none of that on the pedal BS. Just remember, no matter what we do sum1 is guna bitch and moan and complain. Footbrake or 2-Step makes no difference to me and i use a 2-Step. The same guys r going to win and then what?

Justin Picillo
I/SA '72 Chevelle

Re: What to expect
 

I dont really care if 2-steps get banned or not. Footbraking is pretty fun but it wont silence the cynics. They should either be permitted or prohibited, none of this "you can use one but it's gotta be on the brake pedal" crap. That will solve nothing because anybody can have 2 buttons in a car.

Also why was deep staging banned? I dont go in deep but, how bout a break for the slower cars? Seems like a lot of these changes could hurt the lower budget racers.

Re: What to expect
 

Hi Dave Casey,

I like the way you do math.

How about we use a different perspective to look at the numbers?

42.45% want to eliminate something that we already have and 57.55% want to keep the button in one form or another.

I hope that you just made an error in perception and not intentionality trying to slant the numbers?

Bob

Re: What to expect
 

Dave Casey,

I do take it personal, and your observation is bias to your own agenda. I have no problem with your opinion, but I am just stating the facts. Its obvious there is no consensus to make a change, but somehow you have interpreted the poll to fits your needs.

Being the administrator gives me access to who voted. I can tell you that most everyone that voted had raced at least once with NHRA. I feel the Class Racer poll is accurate, although its only a small representation of how racers in stock feel.

Please do take this personal. Next time you make a statement about who is bias, look at your own reply first.

Re: What to expect
 

Im actually surpirsed at there are as many that dont want it,,,I really figured it would be 2 or 3 ,,,Me,,chip and mike Beard

Re: What to expect
 

Don't forget me here Tim! I def voted against it.

Re: What to expect
 

I voted to keep 2-steps in the NHRA poll, but no matter what the decision is on that I can live with it.

The new revalation that I think is horse**** is that they plan on lowering the indexes by 2 tenths. That screws over my plans of buying that car out in the mid west. So I'm buying a car that goes 3 tenths under in October, then by March it will be a 1 tenth under car again. I understand that I have to work on my stuff, but its absolute horse**** that I should be set back cuz some frickin assholes wanna return to the old days or whatever.