Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

For this thread I'm going to ignore the fact that NHRA has a new scanner and plans to change the enforcement of cylinder head rules... even if only for the Showdown cars at first.

Assuming NHRA will never die and will always control the class we love what changes could be made to entice new participation and help keep the classes relevant for years to come. The average age of competitors that aren't driving mom or dads car is only getting higher and higher.. I bet if someone sat down a figured it out it'd be around 60 years old... with less than 10% of cars running being from new blood to the class 60% being guy who've run for years and years and the last 30% being kids or even grand-kids of recently retired long term competitors..

Do we just let the class slowly die as these people pass or decide the cant afford or physically cant drive anymore? or do we proactively make smaller changes over time to reduce cost and drum up new interest in the classes... I know die hard 30+ year vets will hate any changes that effectively erase the classes they love so much.. I too admit that I love Stk/SS for what they are now.. but with technology where it has advanced in the past 20 years to the younger age groups not being able to afford anything let alone a $50,000 11.50 Stock eliminator car, maybe we should be opening these discussions to what the many people involved would be open to considering..I'll start with some changes that I would like to see some day but will be met with huge out cry from the die-hards.

For Stock:

-Must used all OEM part numbers or accept products (just like the current rules), BUT all head porting and intake porting in legal with no CC limits or limitations to modifications to the head or intake. Must use correct TB or Carb but any modification legal. Limits to Bore size say .080 over stays in effect. lifter and rocker arm rules remain the way they are now but I would change the camshaft rules to allow more lift than stock.. keep a limit of maybe .030-.050 over stock, but allow guys to run a cam they would have in their "hot rod" street car.

Essentially this class would turn into more of what the current state of SS is with a few extra limitations. We would have to find a new way to class the combos, but that should also be a task that is accomplish-able. People lose interest in this class these days because they want to go fast as cheaply as possible. They have all these cool parts on their street car and then they come to the track and can fathom spending $2000 on stock cylinder heads for a valve job and a car that runs 12.50s...

For SS open up the aftermarket heads and valve sizes... Make them pick from a list and limit them to ones that can be essentially a direct bolt ons. Pistons tops must not be changed from stock configuration which would limit the use of heads with crazy valve angles out there.

There are others that would make sense, but I want open it up to others at this point.

I think we have 2 classes that are amazing in what people are doing with essentially "Stock" parts.. we all know it's not really stock anymore, but the ET's and MPH people are running with the parts we are using is pretty fascinating to all of us. Sooner or later the number of people interested in will be lower and I think we can keep the ideology behind the 2 classes while opening it up to a newer crowd. Mark Lelchook has a car on the far extreme of what I'm thinking, but a 2015 4 cylinder turbo Mustang he is driving to the track, swapping tires and running 9's.. Nothing about the engine and turbo are stock, I get that, but this is the crowd Stk and SS need to be getting involved in the class. We are alienating them with our current archaic rules..

Just so everyone doesn't freak and denounce this topic. I'm thinking 10-15 year down the road would be the full transition to rules closer to this..with slow changes over time to get there..

Stk/SS are still fully alive and well in their current status, but what does the future hold if we keep these rules for 15 more years?

Brad

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

There's a much simpler fix. Make stock and super stock a performance-based eliminator again.

Reduce classes from a million to 10, and base them on weight per hp.

If you have heads-up runs, you get people interested. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out.

Why spend the money and time to go to a divisional or national event to bracket race? You can go to a local track, spend a day and $50 and be home by dinner time.

You want new blood then you better start drawing heads-up runs. A lot of them.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

OK....I will say it......Are you drunk ?

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

How does redefining which class the same cars already racing with the same parts help bring in new blood? I don't disagree more heads up would help interest more people, but those same people will not spend $50k to go 11.50... they're the people wanting to throw the kitchen sink at it and "run what you brung" just because you give them heads up runs doesn't entice them to build a car for a class that limits them so much the investment isn't worth it. Looks at the racing that has taken off in the past 5 years.. we all think they're crazy and it's just a fad.. but is it??

I'm of the thinking that we can change our rules in way which still keep the overall idea behind the class relevant, but compromise with what might be of interest with new blood and at least maintain a class instead of letting it die as other forms of racing take it's place... What happens to Stk /SS if NHRA goes belly up like AHRA and IHRA?

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

Exactly... like Stock and Super Stock aren't screwed-up enough. Your suggestions would result in Super Stock and Super Super Stock. The answer has never been making more stuff legal. That ridiculous, insanely costly trend started, years ago, when NHRA blew its chance to be a real sanctioning body and suspend Super Stock racers with illegal ported heads. They could have established themselves as serious about ethical competition, but instead, they just made ported heads legal and costs began to spiral upward. And since those floodgates were opened, we have never looked back. Nowadays, you can practically build an entire Super Gas or Super Comp car for the price of a top-tier Super Stock engine, and I would argue that that fact is exactly why the Super class staging lanes are always full.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

Nope.. just looking to open discussion about where others think the class should or needs to go in the next 10-15 years to stay relevant... you may think my ideas are crazy and they may be wayyyyyyy to far out there for the die-hards (I think I might have mentioned that much in the first post), but at some point the current iterations of STK/SS will need to change or they will die... maybe its closer to 30 years from now who knows.. I'm just looking for discussion on where peoples minds are at... or are we all just going to let the class die with it's aging participants?

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

I'm glad that my post did not make you mad but the point is that there are way to many things allowed in stock and super stock today. Each year it seems that new things are allowed. That means expensive things. . I agree with the other guy posting here about the cost. The only thing about the super classes is that the start stop and go in the those classes are not generally spectator appealing. Why build a 155-165 MPH 9.90 car. Yes you can build a complete running Super Class car for less than a killer stocker engine today if you are half way good at doing things yourself and stay in a reasonable MPH rang for whichever class you are competing in. . I have heard some guys have 3 to 4 thousand dollars tied up in the "Stock" heads alone of today. That is CRAZY ! I hope Wesley will be able to help get stock back on the right road again and the new equipment being brought in at INDY will put a stop to it. . If not then I see stock dying in a very few years except for those who are made of $$$$$$$.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

You already answered your own questions.

The new fad that isn't so new is heads-up runs. That's what people want to see and how most people want to race.

Reducing classes will bring a lot of heads-up runs.

Racing has always been expensive but if you're spending $50K to go 11.50's then you're doing it wrong.

Not everyone is going to be at the top of the class. If you don't have the money to go fast then you will need to find ways to go fast on a budget. A lot of guys do that today and some are at the top of their class.

That's what stock and super stock were all about. Working the combination until you can outrun your opponent and then working harder to stay there.

The radial tire crowd and all those gudge and outlaw cars are doing the same thing, and they're spending a ton of money to get there.

Performance based competition will alway be more interesting to everyone involved than just bracket racing.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

throwing this into the mix on stock,,the new generation coming into the sport (unless the family has been doing it for some time)really doesn't understand what it takes to "WRENCH" on stuff to make it faster ,, other than what they see on you tube videos ( I am living it thru my 20 year old's eyes now ) what you get is "all you gotta do is " (not so easy)

if nhra does indeed do the scanning process it will start the process of the later model FS cars ,, now that might get the younger group involved because the mechanical part is some what removed from the making it fast equation (yeah not entirely but different discussion ) and becomes a programmers (tuners) playing field and that's the new generation racer for stock ,, as for the older stuff with carburetors that will eventually fade to condensed classes ,( do I want to see that ! hell no ! but its here )

just my take ,,gmonde

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

I don't think there are many younger men and women that are really interested in actually racing let alone racing a stock or super stock car. The cost to build and maintain one of these things no matter what parts are used is very expensive. The young crowd that I see at the local test and tune nights at our local tracks seem to be into power adder type cars. Turbos and Nitrous is the flavor of the day. if they want to go faster build more Cu in and more boost or spray.

I don't see any good reason to change the rules for either class. The addition of being able to use some aftermarket parts that are newer and stronger in it self saves some money and also brings the aftermarket manufacturers into our classes. The head castings on my car are 51 years old. They haven't been manufactured for 51 years. Its getting more difficult to find the castings so it is good to be able to buy some new aftermarket castings to start the build.

Right now stock and super stock seem to be holding their own. NHRA is not helping with their quota system. It makes it difficult for a new racer to be able to enter a national event.

The allure for our classes is not so much how fast they are its how fast you can go in comparison to others that follow the same rules package as you do. Stock and Super Stock are definitely 2 of the toughest classes to race. the drivers are as good as they come and you have to have a fast car that can also be consistent. That is a difficult proposal at times.

You also have to enjoy traveling. To be able to enter a national event you have to amass about 6 - 7 grade points. depending on where you live this could add up to traveling 7-10,000 miles per season to get those points.

Personally I enjoy racing super stock as much as I ever did. I just wish I could do more of it. I probably would quit racing before I became a local bracket racer

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

I don't think opening head rule and gross cam lift will entice the young crowd into building a stocker. More heads up racing may help as I run at Street car events and they like heads up small, big,dot tire stuff. Late model cars with tuners, cold air filter seems to be what the young crowd like. Now convince them to take that late model car and get it to fit in stock class racing and you may have something.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

My Son & I are new to Stock Eliminator.
I had bracket raced for 20+ years & my Son started bracket racing as a Senior in high school (2006).
We had a lot of success with bracket racing, but my Son decided he wanted to race a Stocker.
I asked him if he was tired of cashing checks, LOL.
He wanted a new challenge, so found a budget priced Stocker & got started.
We are a low budget setup.
I have a few friends that race in STK that I lean on for info.


One of the most common part of all this, a lot of Stock doesn't seem Stock to me.
Maybe I was naïve about what Stock was.
Anyway, we have bought our ticket & doing what we can do on a budget to be competitive.


Tear downs & young people don't mix.
Most seemed challenged to open the hood.
Not really their fault, even the biggest POS modern day car will start & run.
Not really a reason to learn how to work on cars.
What I see for the future, if a young person wants to run STK, he will probably buy an engine, transmission & whatever else he needs.
They won't be building anything, just shopping for parts & suppliers.
We received notice recently that we were being torn down.
First thing my Son said "You have to be there to answer questions & of course put it back together".
I have been teaching him along the way, but he is still intimidated by it.
Totally agree with having teardowns to keep everyone honest.


He recently won his first race in Stock.
I asked him how it rated with other races that he had won, he said it was his best racing accomplishment to date.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

And there you have it, folks!

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

I don't usually post much, i try to sit back and take in the knowledge and opinions of the more seasoned racers, however i feel like i'm in a similar situation. I too, am a second generation racer, though a good bit older than your son, however my father has pretty much always raced class. I'm in the same boat as your son, still trying to learn all i can. i started by bracket racing our Super Stocker and just recently participated in my first Super Stock race. While i didn't win the race, i did get my first SS round win, and against a tough competitor to boot and i felt more accomplished in that than in any bracket round win i had gotten. As for the teardowns, I 100% believe in them, even though i would probably not be able to accomplish it by myself yet. But i will still be ready at any time. Fortunately, as racers, we have a tight nit group of friends who i believe would be happy to help get me through it.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

Sad to say but the younger gearheads are drawn to heads up racing and grudge racing, as well as no prep racing.

The common denominator for those classes is the absence of a bunch of rules and restrictions.
They meet min. weight, max. tire size, and the largest power adder allowed for their class.

As much as I love Stock and Super Stock racing, it's hard to attract new blood in class racing with all the restrictions in place.

Just my opinion....

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

Since everybody seems to be dissecting Stock, let me throw in my 2 cents....

You want more HEADS-UP racing just listen to my plan....

No quotas in Stock and Super Stock at any National Event..

If you think that you can qualify enter the race and if not that's OK you can still race LODRS until you are.

32, 64, 128 car fields because Competition will sort it out....

Class winners only (OK if you need more cars to fill the fields add fastest qualifiers to the bottom..

The more popular national events will need larger fields..

It's hard to head-up races at a national event with Class Eliminations when the quota is capped at 60 cars...

I believe that there are someplace around 80 different classes within Stock Eliminator..

If Stock and Super Stock are to continue to survive, heads-up racing with cars in the same class is needed..

The FS are OK but they should have to race their way into the eliminator by winning class or being a low qualifier to fill the open spots.

In 1985 at INDY we pitted alongside of a team that had raced at INDY for the last 4 years and this was the first time they qualified for Super Stock Eliminator. To them qualifying at INDY was the same as being World Champion.

It's got to mean something, or it means nothing..

Or am I just tilting at windmills??????

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

Well, I think I might have jinxed us with my last post on this thread. We're getting ready to take our friends stocker that we're racing at Indy to the teardown barn to pull a rod and piston!

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

I hope your friend was running the T/S Comet .... if so you should be in and out in less than 3 or 4 hours even pulling a rod and piston. The pan drops right off. It is one of the best vehicles and engines to be running if you have to pull a rod and piston at an NHRA teardown.

We were lucky several years ago at the Winternationals when everyone in teardown had to pull a rod and piston to be running Doolittle's W/S Comet.... We were in and out before most guys had their V8 pans off.

Good luck!

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

I fully agree. In my opinion, the big money has (and always will) continue to influence that direction. And like any economic model, the money is like a pyramid, with the participant herd thinning the higher up it goes. And that small herd no doubt continues to have influence on the rules. Those same rules for aftermarket parts were relaxed while I was building my car AFTER purchasing what was previously required (Beehive valve springs in stock come to mind). My son was also in grade school who watched what I went through, leaving impressions that ultimately would influence his lack of interest as an adult. He now says "why would I spend $50k on a car that runs 10 seconds flat out when I can spend the same amount to go 8s or faster in something else?" Then he says "besides, that class car stuff is way too confusing, and NHRA isn't the only game out there. Most of my friends haven't even heard of it anyway, while everyone knows about imports, mudding, and street outlaws. The huge crowds prove it, dad."

In retrospect, NHRA should have never caved to outside influence, instead pour their energy into compiling lists of approved parts (if it ain't on the list, you're DQ'd PERIOD), and follow a better suited protest/claimer program commonly used in circle track racing. At least in that system, it keeps out players with deep pocket influence while still forcing the low buck racer to pay his dues without destroying his budget in the process. And it would lessen NHRA tech enforcement workload, putting more responsibility back on the racers to ensure they stay within the boundaries instead of pushing them, or paying someone else to push them.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

Car Sharing! It's a sharing culture for mellenials. They share experiences, they share costs and time together. NHRA needs to change the grade point rules such that a couple of young guys/gals who don't have a lot of money to own a car, share costs and take turns running at different divisionals and still get into the local national event with only 1 or 2 grade points for the driver. You get large groups coming out to run one car. Cost per individual to be part of the racing experience will be way less. A single car might be raced by 2, 3 or more drivers in a given year and still get into National events.

Keep car counts in check with Qualifying on Thursday. Make it a top 64 qualified field to keep the count down to 64 car field on Friday eliminations.

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

History could repeat itself ... once before we divided into two categories > how about we put all flat hoods into SS (scoops into Comp) use rules similar to current cut classes to 1lb stick auto together .... then new class stock use 1972 rules no bs > two divisions one FI. Computer controllers & one carburetor ?? That would allow entry level participation at a huge reduced rate kiddies can race new stuff etc 🤔🤔🤔

Re: Interesting Thoughts-- Future of Stk/SS
 

I love the Super/Stock and Stock Racing, it's my favorite of all motorsports by a long shot. I am preparing a car to compete in Super/Stock, but it will never be close to fast. But it can be competitive in the eliminator, as long as I don't wind up with a "heads-up" race. The future of the classes is very scary, as is most of what we had in life in the past ... it's not what it used to be. To me the bottom line in Stock and Super/Stock is just like Comp and the Pro Classes ... FAST IS JUST MONEY ! Plain and simple BIG MONEY BUYS THE LATEST PARTS, THE BEST SUPPORT EQUIPMENT, THE NEWEST TECHNOLOGY, THE BEST TEAM MECHANICS, MANAGEMENT, ***AND DRIVERS*** .... and then they take all of that, and throw it all at me with my little entry built in the back yard. Now I'm not saying it's unfair, especially in the "Dial-in" eliminator. I'm OK lined up beside deep pockets in a bracket format for sure. But deep pockets usually equal Seniors. And as the Seniors move on, and there is no back fill ... I don't know how it can live. The older crowd fell in love with these classes back in the day when things were simple, and have pressed on, and stayed with it. But todays folks won't do that, there's to much stuff to do that's a lot easier! Having said all of that .... FAST IS VERY COOL ... EVEN IF YOU JUST STROKE A CHECK TO GET THERE! Just think how cool it would be to have "Class" contested at each divisional and national. That way we could appreciate fast, as well as the Dial under Eliminator for us with less deep pockets. But please don't make it Class Winners only in the Eliminator ... oh no! mo money, mo money! There are no "new blood lines" on the farm. All of the youngsters (18 - 45) racing have family that raced. Super/Stock and Stock racing has some serious challenges ahead and pretty soon. The amount of energy needed in the form of MONEY, EFFORT, DEDICATION, MOTIVATION, AND DETERMINATION all for the chance to say you won an NHRA event and a lit bit of money ... is not as enticing as it used to be!

Wade Mahaffey