Locking 'Em Up
 

We’ve all heard of the stories; cars smoking the tires at the finish line, cars getting out of control, and in some cases racers being disqualified for hitting the brakes too hard.

https://dragracingedge.com/the-blog/locking-em-up/

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

Reminds me of this:

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

And me of this old famous one


http://https://www.facebook.com/drag...u&__tn__=EHH-R

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

The last time I locked them up I was quickly introduced to the guard wall. Don't do it folks. Not only do you put yourself in danger but you also endanger the guy in the other lane.

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Easier to get in trouble for that, than you might think. I got my butt chewed out for smoking my tires at the stripe, when I was pretty certain I had not stepped on the pedal hard enough to lock them up. Talking about that in the staging lanes later, another racer told me “You do it all the time!” I had no idea.

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Be thankful that no one has ever died because of this. At least I don't think that has ever happened and hope that it NEVER does.

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as scooter pecos (ihra race director at the time) so eloquently explained to me after i said oh no sir my tires hit the fenderwell headers i wasnt skidding ... " that was 6mph less than previous run and i dont care if your rings go away if i see smoke again youre DQ"

summed it right up

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

I'm guessing a proportioning valve, with bias to the rear brakes has been tried?

I had a car that had factory front discs, and should've had 10" rear drums, but it had 11". It would lock the rears wheels when it had street tires on it, but stopped nicely when the slicks were on it.

Of course, the fronts usually do most of the work, but in this case, the rears did and the slicks made it work.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

Likely the best way is using the data, in addition to the eyeball test for smoke, getting out of shape, etc.

I always thought the MPH on the slip was the average MPH over the last 66 feet,

so wouldn't take a lot of effort to add a sensor to just have the slip print out the 1254 speed and time and the 1320 speed and time.......flagrant unsafe run would jump out.

also would be a good tool for micro-tuning the converter, rear gear, tranny fluid, etc.

Eric

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I put one on mine. An adjustable one. Several years ago. Fronts don’t slide so easily now.

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I should have said, "adjustable". Thanks Ed.
I could two foot that car after chasing someone, leaving the throttle wide open and modulating the cars speed with the brake to keep it a fender ahead. (If I didn't think I'd breakout.) Never locked the wheels. -Oh, presuming I could catch the other car. lol

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

I've had a few inadvertent lock-ups while doing exactly that. I think after a coupe pumps the brakes get hot and extremely grabby.

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When my buddy drives my car he tends to lock them up once in awhile. He is used to dragging the brakes in his car and stab them when he needs to, his stock brakes don't lock up. I have four wheel disc in the same type of car and same ET, but I don't drag them the same way and have never locked them up.

So yes, different driving styles can lead to different results with the same car!

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

There is a front tire in production that does not smoke when slid.

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Personally I don't race that way. I dial my car what I think it will run and do my best to have a better light and package than the other driver. If you are good on the bulb and run close to your dial you will win rounds. I can say that I have had very few races where the other guy hammered the brakes on me and I have been doing this a good while. I keep track of the other racers Q times and see how their dial in compares to their Q time and the weather conditions at the time of the round. Then I plan my strategy for the round. I don't find many sandbagging. Might be different in Stock eliminator

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

I certainly could have been lucky that I didn't lock them. They were drums, if that matters.
We (my partner and I) always dialed 1 or 2 faster than we thought it would go, and depend on a good light and the car's ability to run the number. I had to decide if I would breakout or not, depending on how good I thought my light was.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

Maybe those who "lock em up" should do just that in testing to prevent smoking the tires. I know in my car i can slam the brakes on at the finish line and my brakes never lock up. I guess i have them adjusted perfectly, I don't know. But if others who do this regularly would test the way they race, maybe they could prevent locking em up also??

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

That’s a very interesting observation right there. Statistics show that a racer that actually owns the car and pays the bills is LESS likely to lock up the brakes at the stripe. I wonder why ......??

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

I'm with Bryan on this subject.... I've been know to hit the brakes at the stripe fairly regularly.. sometimes pretty hard... I can even time the "stab" to take the beam with the nose instead of the tire if I feel that will get me a round (has cost me a few).. but I CAN'T get them to lock.. 4 wheel discs.. maybe people need to put some effort into setting there car up and testing it in a non-elimination setting so they know what it will do when they make certain actions.. An educated driver is a safe driver..

I've driven MANY cars over the years and some could lock the tires... some easier than others, but most if I had driven them long enough could be controlled to where I either couldn't lock em up.. or I knew what it would do with a sharp stab and had no issues driving through it. When people lose control it's because they stab the brake.. it slides... they panic and push harder and have no control of said car because they had no expectation of the reaction to their action.. they couldn't plan ahead..

Obviously at the speeds we run things will happen, and we call them accidents for a reason.. but if you take some time to learn your cars reactions to various driver inputs MANY "loss of control" situations could be avoided..

just my opinion...

Brad

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

That could be true, but he stood on the pedal once at the finish line like I do during a time shot just to see what the car would do, it did not lock the brakes up. It is only when you drag them from the 1000ft on then stab them that it will lock them up.

We have both killed 12+ mph from a 135ish pass and I would not lock them up but he could on occasion.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

I know I have been guilty of this a few times and been next to someone who has locked them up on me (the last time it was so bad they rolled the trucks thinking they scattered the motor next to me). I have seen and been the one to get warnings (usually my warning came AFTER I lost the round) and have seen one time in all of my years racing where someone got tossed. I will be the first to say I try not to race this way and hate when people race that way next to me...

That being said I think it boils down to two things-type of brake system you use, and how you drive. I know in my bracket car I have factory discs up front, factory drums out back, and if I am to heavy on the brake pedal it will fry the front tires. Conversely, my brother drove a stocker years ago with Wilwoods front and rear, just rubbed the pedal at the stripe in a time shot to get a feel for things and dropped 10 mph quick without locking the brakes up. It all depends on the brake system you use, how it's adjusted, and the way the suspenson is set up (seen cars lock up the tires with no suspension drop and then the nose dig a hole with the tires still rolling). It all boils down to physics...if you have enough forward momentum you can drive through the stopping resistance no matter how hard you hit the brakes.

Second it's driving style...you can rub the brakes, stab the brakes at the stripe and be OK, but when you throw it into an "oh s**t" panic stop that's when you see people get into trouble locking them up more often than not. But this is all just my 2 cents, which is probably worth me owing $100 bucks with the decline in my portfolio

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Paraphrasing Bob Bondurant, "The skidding wheel wants to lead". In other words, if your suspension and your brakes are adjusted properly, the car will stay straight when the front tires are skidding. This SHOULD be the case with the narrow front tires that we run.

If the rear tires lock up, they also want to lead. That's when things get nasty. A friend of mine found that out one time when, at 150 mph, he found out how well 2 piston rear calipers work.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

heads up starts. with todays electronic timing systems, both cars pick their dial. both cars leave heads up and the car with the best package gets the win light. no finish line racing.
this would make the racing safer, no 8 second car going by a 13 second car at the finish line and no reason to kill the brakes at the finish line.
of course all of the good racers, who are very good at finish line racing will never go for it.
remember dial in racing started when there were no reaction timers and hand written time cards.

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You wouldn't even have to line up against each other then or even be at the same track. Just go to your local test and tune then submit in your slip over the net. LOL

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I proposed this a few years ago, but no one seemed interested: one race a year at Charlotte running 4 wide. Same rules that we run under now, but applying to all 4 cars. I THINK it would end up as a best package race since you wouldn't really know which car to sandbag (who's going under, who isn't?), it would be hard to judge cars on both sides of you, or a car 3 lanes over from you. A 64 car race could be run in 3 rounds, or you could run 128 cars in 4 rounds, with the final being just two cars. With Las Vegas now being 4 wide, there could be and east coast and west coast race. I'm not proposing that this become the norm, just a specialty race, much like the cic race that used to run at the Sportsnationals once a year.

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What a great Idea. Run a national gamblers race, Everyone pays the track test and tune, all on the same day, then everyone puts up $50.00 into a pot, 400 cars $15,000 for best run and $4,000 for 2nd best run. $500 for 3rd best run and $500 to promoter. Cuts down on travel costs Cheap day to win a lot of money.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

This Best Package races are running here in Az

.500 Sportsman (full) tree
2 time runs, 3 competition rounds
Heads-up start with dial-in
Best Single Run package wins
For run to count – green light, and no break out
Tie-breakers: 1 – most counted passes, 2 – average package
Transbrake – permitted
Open to all vehicles that pass 1320′ NHRA tech
Delay Box & Throttle Stop – must be zero’d out or removed
Payouts:

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

I kind of enjoy the competition of being the better driver myself so I'll pass. Test and tune holds no enjoyment for me. I do see a great number of guys that just want to make passes so you might have a huge base of, dare I say, competitors? If you can't cut it on the track as it is now that might be the next best thing.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

that would suck, no fun at all

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I tend to agree. Even with my inconsistent driving ability, I could still, on occasion, make a fluke run. Winning under those circumstances just wouldn't give me much satisfaction. Losing under those circumstances would just make losing that much worse.

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That's the most true thing I've read in a long time. LOL

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I don't quite understand the ill attitude towards the suggested "Package Racing."

Isn't this all we are doing when not running a competitor in the same class now? Our goal is to have a .000 RT and run on our number with a "0." This would give us a .000 Package obviously and our intent is to run as close to this number each and every round we stage.

Due to the format we currently run with staggered starts and such we as racers have developed many different strategies to achieve this goal. Some...one could say even most depend on the performance of the driver in the other lane. But others blindly foot it out the back door as it is and hope their light and ET combo is small enough to beat the other guy no matter what strategy the other driver may be using..

I agree I wouldn't like this to be the norm.. I enjoy the finish line driving and the different ways we all race to get their first without going too fast.. but I will say with our current rules how many times do we see a guy go .002 dead 5 only to have the other guy go .002 dead 3, and they lose. We then watch the next pair have two RTs in the .060 range and both run 2 hun off their dial.. We all chalk it up to bad luck that round.. be kinda hard to have an off run ever if you have to have a package in the top half every round to keep advancing.. you wouldn't get a lucky break just cause the guy in the other lane went RED.

I'm still on the team of leaving our rules alone for the 99% of racing out there, but to think it would be any less competitive or you would need any less skill to win a package race is a little far from reality.. It would take the 1 on 1 bragging rights of lining up and taking a single competitor out but it sure would be exciting to have a decent package and then wait until the round is over to know if it was good enough to get you through to the next round. Be interesting to see how good a package would have to be each round to win a Stock or SS race with say 100 cars.

Brad

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

They have been running a "package attack" gambler at the bracket finals, for years, up in this corner of the U.S.

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I also think "best package" would make things even more confusing for the casual spectator than they already are.

On the other hand, I suppose that doesn't include a lot of people anyway.

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We are already racing best package. Just staggered start instead of staggering finish. Best package will always win.

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Best package competes against all racers each time and not just the racer in the other lane. So basically we're are racing best package.

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What if you get a big random gust of wind during your run? It impacts both you and the guy in the other lane, but not the people that run in the other pairs.

Dialing is a skill, but there are so many more variables out of your control than there are on the starting line. That's why driving skill is so important. I wouldn't be interested in a race where it isn't a factor.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

the thread start was about excessive braking. heads up start takes finishline racing out of the picture. it also makes worst redlight the loser.. you could also make running under not a penalty. make it closest to dial and reaction time total.

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In today's bracket world when a gust of wind came, what would you do? It should be the same answer as best package racing. If you want to still dial soft and whack the brakes and see what your ET will be that's fine also. Just don't make smoke. I think best package racing and sliding car at finish line over time will make you a better predictor of your ET.

Re: Locking 'Em Up
 

Lenny this happens now.. I don't see how this is any different. You dial on your pass the best you can.. you may have a strategy that you don't "dial hard" and hope the other guy runs his race in a manner that you can lift in relation to him and stay over.. or he may run under more than you depending on the circumstances.. but you're guessing your dial based on the conditions at the last possible moment you are allowed to change dials. Only difference would be you have to guess for your conditions better than half the field did on their conditions not just the guy in the other lane. We all race with sometime similar conditions the entire round to drastically different, but we still have to get our dial close for our single pass.

With the current state of Stock Eliminator you could have a pair dialed about 8.00 all the way to like 16.00 (rounding for ease of illustration).. that means the slower guy has 8 seconds of track time where said gust of wind could come up and affect him where the fast guy is sitting stationary. With your argument the slow guy isn't getting a fair shot..

again I wouldn't want this racing to become the norm by any means but to look down upon the idea because it's different and not what we do is ignoring how similar it already is to what were doing.. I mean you could even make it more similar to what we do and just run a heads up start with a staggered finish with all other rules remaining the same as we have them now. 2 stage one comes back then literally the only difference is the heads up start vs staggered start.. eliminates the finish line games while keeping the race most similar to what we have now. I'm open to a few races a year in one of these formats but not this changing the norm..

Brad