Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

I was surprised to see the thread that mentioned lawsuit(s) over cylinder heads and thought about posing some comments perhaps as a point that some might have opinions about. The following are some of those thoughts::D

Caveat: The comments here are not intended to cause problems but to perhaps help clarify some points, not ruffle feathers. I know what the rulebook states and I have seen and tested many heads that were passed as legal. That term is interesting to say the least.;)

Stock Eliminator Cylinder Head Preparation
Current rules both written and what is visually allowed in Stock Eliminator drag racing is somewhat nefarious relative to practical applications. Each year some nuance is brought forward that had been not allowable in previous years. In order to have a competitive cylinder head package for a given engine, careful preparation is required.:cool:

Cylinder Head Preparation Points and Comments
1) Clean and inspect cylinder head castings (Magnaflux for cracks)
2) Prep guides / bronze liners / hone to fit stem sizing
3) Measure ports for CC volume – record notes – casting number verification
4) Prep ports and flow test / Record for File
5) Cut valve seats / Face valves to match as required
6) Measure combustion chamber CC volume
7) Disguise port work with chemical etching / ABS Cheating Bastard Blaster / or equal
8) Flow test and verify final port volume requirement
9) Cut deck surface for final combustion chamber CC requirement
10) Install screw in studs if necessary
11) Mill head bolt pads compatible and perpendicular with cylinder head deck surface
12) Finish for seals / spring seats / cups
13) Cut intake manifold mounting surface appropriate for deck surface removal
14) Note for distributor spacers and gaskets if required
15) Mark with SN and Flow File Documentation
16) Hope for accurate feedback from Customer or engine builder

Does this follow with your experiences ? What say y'all?

Regards.
HB2:)
Dissident

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

I feel any comment on this subject could endanger or cause harm to the said lawsuit. The last thing I would want to happen in a lawsuit is it be decided by being discussed in the forum of public opinion.
I'm sure we will have plenty of time to discuss and cuss it when it is settled.
Adger Smith

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Apparently #7 is why we're so damn slow! :D:D:D

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

my experience has been that if you don't do what the fast guys are doing your not going to be nearly as fast. The rules are pretty gray as to what you can do to the heads and intake. No grind marks and rite cc in the runners your good to go.Unless you run into Westly or Wayne then you mite have a problem, of course the cost of the heads ,manifold is now in the 5500 dollar range. Then there are some combo that are still soft,You just need to pick the rite one and get your check book out. Or be prepared for a uphill battle, ask anyone who has been doing it for many years.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

What STK combo(s) are the heads and manifold $5500? I am assuming at that cost they are built up and installed, correct?

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

The big issue is with Super Stock cylinder heads were rules have been more open than Stock Eliminator cylinder heads.

The fact that intake adapters and spacer were prohibited in Super Stock when welded, epoxied and sheet metal intake manifolds are allowed did not make any sense.

As regards to the high cost of competitive Stock Eliminator heads and intake manifolds, you are paying for the knowledge and hard work of those that build them and the cost is for a set of heads and intake ready for use.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Jim's statement is right on the money!
Classes such early Chevy small and big block, Mopar small and big block and a few others, in order to be competitive, you have to pay for the technology.

These engine packages have been in competition for decades and almost every single ounce of power has been extracted throughout the years. What makes the difference is the shop that either builds the cylinder heads and intake package and/or the engine and the camshaft design.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Gentle Folks of the Class Racer Forum,:D
When I originally posted the outline of assumptions of preparations, it was specifically intended to address Stock Eliminator heads only. The SS stuff is another stack of candle wax entirely. :o

This was intended as a separate issue of discussion from whatever the details are in any sort of lawsuit stuff as I know nothing whatsoever about that deal. Most of those kinds of things are settled on courthouse steps anyway.:confused:

My comments were and are that I do not do work on cylinder heads, only having seen and flow tested some. I am an old guy and have seen the allowable "modifications" become rampant and are typically passed or failed on "visual" approval or disapproval. Regardless of what the rule book states. I abhor the politics and would prefer to stick to the technical side of the equation. Unfortunately that involves people and that is the most difficult item to balance in the equation. :rolleyes:

In the meantime of lots of us can perhaps have a sensible discussion on the Stock Eliminator issue as presented. Thank you for your participation.;)

$5500???? Wow that came as an eye opener:eek:

Regards,
HB2:)
Dissident

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

#5 and #8 are done numerous times and yield the most significant gains. They are also labor intensive and contribute a great deal to the cost. In my case, it was my labor. The flow bench that I built and my curiosity about air flow was an experience I wish I had done long ago.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Cheatin' is cheatin'. Don't matter if everyone is doing it, it is still cheatin'. I really don't know how you hold your head up after you beat someone in a "heads up" or for "class" when you are illegal. If it makes you feel proud then go circle track racing where it is a badge of honor.
Just $.02 from a cranky old man.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

A very well done set of SBC Stock Eliminator heads that perform and pass tech are easily $4,500. An intake done to match can be $1000-1500. -Al

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Think about the core issues of this discussion. Stock? What?

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Well, the title of the thread is: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads

And the question was asked by Andy:

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

One of the reasons for the cost, besides its for the price that horsepower comes with, is that it is very labor intensive work. You almost can't charge for what its worth because of the expense of doing it. A set of heads is as much work as doing the rest of the bottom half of the engine. If a bottom end failure does in the short block, cam, pan and related items, that's pretty seriously bad enough. When one or both heads gets hurt, that adds to it or doubles the equation, in both dollar value of pieces, but in time spent above and beyond that. Also, like everything else that is cast iron, variations in castings from the foundry onward, will result in a part being just OK, a Better part or a Good part. One out of every 10 or 20 might be an Excellent casting, which means its better to start with. Before all the incredible head work and intake work came into being, racers used to flow bench test sometimes 20 heads, and kept track of the variables. Out of the 20, enough variations were obvious in that two heads were over and above the rest of them, those became the best performing pair of the bunch, justifying the further money that was going to be spent on them. The rest probably wound up in the ads somewhere. The newest technology applied to heads tends to result in more heads being acceptable,since the necessary work will tend to equalize them with the top of the line head a little more. Variations in castings can even be traced to foundry data and date codes and that sort of thing. Lots of builders know what further numbers on a given set of heads to look for, all 041's or 462's or 290's aren't always equal. Cylinder heads are a whole art form in engine building that takes this sport to an unforeseen level.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

If they're going to allow the heads to be taken to a certain level, I think the rulebook should reflect that, if not, the rules should be enforced.

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That's why I have 70 to 80 mopar 906 heads with different casting dates. Some are just better than others. Also have several sets of 346's and 452's.
I have spilled enough alcohol to float a boat pouring runners.
And then try to figure out what works best. Its a scavenger hunt with a rubik's cube all in one. It's fun, but sometimes I wonder when the fun will start.

Chevy truck heads we got'em !

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

For ten years I ran a dirt track Sprint car. Cheaters, when caught, were looked down on as well. When they started to P&G the top five cars every week, we lost some out of town cars. :-)

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After I built my flow bench (could not just buy a SuperFlow) back then) I was shocked at the variation of air flow between different castings, same casting numbers.

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WOWSER!!! STK Racers are truly a rare breed then. I can go low 11's for maybe that much on a whole SBC Chevy bracket engine in my Dad's 69 Chevelle, or I can spend that much on just the heads and intake to go maybe a little faster, but NHRA STK legal. I know it's not about the ET ROI in STK, but doing it within a tight window of specs that is the fun. I would like to run the Chevelle in I/S someday, bucket list...



The level of competition being what it is today, and guys that want to win Class at Indy, for example; Does having to pay other people to do a lot of the rollcage, suspension build and tuning, trans build and tuning, engine build, tweaking, massaging etc, does it still feel the same when you go fast? I am NOT trying to start a fight either or offend. I just can't relate as I don't have that kind of checkbook and I am a weirdo in my own right. I would personally rather be near the bottom of a qual list, after a few or more DNQ's, but made the field doing as much as physically possible on my own, then win class buying speed parts/services or a known fast car. (if I somehow magically won the lottery or something, and I do try regularly!!)

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Yes.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Yep. It is called "Core Shift". Caused by a deviation during the casting process due setting on the mold, mold alignment issues, mold temperatures and pressure differentials. One of the many reasons why the fast guys spend lots of money testing and going through many castings.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Not likely.

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After winning Atlanta in the truck, a dime rocket then, I took most of my winnings and purchased a 600 bench, Flo Com,and B'ski fixtures. It still provides hours of fun.

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A veteran racer told me long time ago, you can build your own stuff, but when you want to go fast you take it to reputable shop. By the time you go all over the place getting parts and machine work you will spend as much or more. A good builder with fast customers knows what you need or where to find it. Plus their advice and experience will avoid mistakes so you can be fast.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Andy, here's the thing....just because you can spend a lot of money, that doesn't mean you have to. Or that you should. Each racer should race the way they want to race, period.

And if that means you're not the killer azz kicker in your class, so be it. You can be a player by watching the qualifying sheets and being careful. And if you get a heads-up at some point...hey, the fast guy still has to run the race and turn on the win light first. Lots of things can, and do, happen.

Don't let not wanting to spend a fortune deter you from getting into Stock or Super Stock. It's a lot of fun, believe me! :) -Al

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Hi Frank.

Thanks for editing your original post to clarify. Makes more sense to me, now. ;) -Al

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Main issue is the pins and bushings on the cope and drag wearing overe the course of production. The foundries don’t pay close attention to this! Been in many foundries and they all have same problem from time to time. Lack of good QC.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

I'm pretty sure if you spend $6000 on a set of small block iron heads that "core shift" becomes a non-issue.

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Oh but you can have problems. It’s call the lawn sprinkler problems

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

If I thought that was true.....There would not be racks with a hundred plus sets of head castings in my shop. If core shift does not concern you = I have quite a few that you could get a really good deal on from me!


Just my .02
Your mileage may vary.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

I knew a local machine shop that had a back room full of castings. He let me take several for testing. My ‘56 was newly allowed the “520” castings. I discovered the 520X castings.
Held more CCs than legal. I had decked my block a lot, so needed to mill the intake side of my heads a lot so the manifold would fit. Got rid of some intake CCs.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Completely agree Alan, I don't think someone has to be the fastest or 'coolest' or have the best paint or bazillion $$ tow rig to have a blast racing. There is a lot more to it than that for me.

I am determined to build a 14-15 Camaro to run SS/FA or SS/GA. I would like to run pts meets, GLSSSA or similar races, No-Box stuff and 1/4 mile racket races too. I plan to do as much of the work myself as possible. I can TIG weld, fabricate, CAD design, do FEA and CNC machine too. I will learn CFD as well so I can design, machine and flow my own heads and intakes. I want to build my own motor and trans as well. I will paint the car, if I have to. Never done it, but I am willing to learn and try. I want to be able to say this is MY race car, I paid for it, I designed it, I built it, I drive it and I am very proud of it. (good or bad)
We'll see if put my nickels were my mouth is....

I can't wait to get back to the track, I hope everyone is staying safe, and sane through all of this.

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

I have a completely different result going through castings and flowing them...
my brother and I went through dozens and dozens of 882's and 450's for our cars...
you could have threw them all in a pile closed your eyes and grabbed a pair and they would have been as good as any other dozens of heads in that pile...maybe every 882 and 450 just suck...
that being said though I still try to pick a set that look like they have the least shift and least flaws.... not for performance but for reliability...

Re: Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads
 

Sounds like a path well thought Andy..