stockers
 

Lately it has come to my attention that not all stockers are running by the rules. Engines not legal, tranys not right and electronics not right. If you are NOT running by the rules I have 2 words for you... F... you. All of us that run by the rules ,spend to much money and work to hard to have people just run what you bring to the track.... Shame on all of you. Your only cheating yourself. If you can not run legal, go to another class. Just think being beat by a person not legal....Not right at all.

Re: stockers
 

Gary, I have no doubt that you are correct here.
The part about engines could have been written 50 years ago. In fact, if was ,if you read SS&DI back then .
Maybe someone could be more specific about the transmissions and electronics.
Maybe some of these folks are just "confused".
This could be very enlightening.

Re: stockers
 

Makes you wonder how many are out there running not legal and getting away scot free.

Re: stockers
 

I wonder sometimes myself but I'm more inclined to think the number of people blatantly cheating is very low. Atleast I hope I'm right anyway. I think there are a few that may be a little outside of the rules and don't realize it but it's up to the racer to know the rules.
I've never got too upset about it but there was a time I would see quite a few running wrong spoiler package or grill and it didn't really bother me that much although I had went through alot of trouble to have mine right. Then a few years ago after I had a little success someone called Glendora after I my runner-up at Charlotte complaining that I didn't have my fog lights in the grill. I was like you got to be ****ting me! As far as I knew it was an option and I can tell you there was no performance advantage lol.

Re: stockers
 

No skin in the game.

But very interested in this.

I was just discussing the possibility of building a Stocker wagon, to maybe run 1 or 2 of the division 4 races. When the subject of the rear end came up, several said that if they knew my rear end was even just an inch or 2 shorter than what came in the car when it was new, they would protest me immediately.

Since that time I've learned a little more about it. One thing I've learned is that there has been some form of acid porting of heads & intakes, for MANY years. Most everybody knows that many of the older combinations could not possibly flow enuff air to run the rpm & make the big power they make nowadays, with absolutely factory stock ports. Apparently, NHRA decided at some point that they either could not, or would not police this.

Since there is no cam duration limit or spring pressure limit, I'm really interested in what most of these engine cheaters are doing. Are we talkin strokers--way too many cubes ? Or maybe illegal pistons which produce lots more compression ? Aluminum rods & a lighter rotating assembly ?

I assume that checking for the correct heads, intake, & legal carb are pretty easy for most any tech guy. So, just wondering what most of the engine cheaters are doing that's not legal ??? :confused:

Sorry for the dummy questions. But, if you don't know, one of the best ways to learn is by asking those who DO know, IMO. :o

Thanks in advance to all who will have enuff patience to help me understand these details.

PS: I understand about the spending lots of money & time to build a quick & legal car. So, I don't need to hear any more about that, please.

Re: stockers
 

Any time any of my cars can be checked. My A/SA 427 was checked at Dallas a couples of weeks ago. My 15 car 4 times last year. I have nothing to hide. Come see. How many can say this. Chime in please.

Re: stockers
 

That's great, because your cars run very well ! I remember when Bobby DeArmond's car was torn down at Mission after the first legal 9 second stocker pass and everything laid out on a table for all to see. Pistons out, pan off etc ... so there would be no doubt about legality. NHRA tech certified it and it was recorded on Pfister's "4 Days in May" video.
Awesome

Re: stockers
 

More cheating going on than you can Imagine!

Re: stockers
 

My problem is they tear the same guys down all the time. I get I’m number one at Indy, That I’m asking for it. But to get me at minimum every other time and 3 times in a year at times, their effort could be used more wisely than hitting the same guys over and over. Maybe it’s simplicity that they know we will comply tear down and pass, but that seems to undermine what tear down was when I started in the late 80s

I have had many conversations with people in the “barn” about the fact that there are plenty of people that have raced for 20 years and never been down.

Re: stockers
 

Had to laugh out loud after reading this one! So why were you on the bottom of the 2019 US Nationals Stock Eliminator qualifying sheet with a DQ????

Re: stockers
 

Had to laugh out loud after reading this one! So why were you at the bottom of the 2019 US Nationals Stock Eliminator qualifying sheet???

Re: stockers
 

I think most abide by the rules and are legal according to the rules in place.

Re: stockers
 

Cheating was invented by the looser of the first drag race. The winner invented the protest.

Pun aside, I think there is a lot of integrity in Class racing. The Stock/SS racers I know out here take great pains to maintain legal engines and drive trains. They keep their Class cars under cover and have built bracket cars for week to week racing.

Re: stockers
 

Or was it the other way around.LOL

Re: stockers
 

It seems like there has always been that small percentage of ones that don't like to play .by the rules. From the outside looking in Tech doesn't seem to be anything like it use to be either. Just my opinion


Jerry
Retired 3490 3492 STK SS SST

Re: stockers
 

You are way late to the game ,not all stockers running by the rules , many racers have pushed the engine builders to push the rules for years ,how about at least twenty five years or more ,and it has always been the same story have NHRA call me , what a joke call them for what ,NHRA has no clue about even looking at a cylinder head ,I have heard ,and seen them ask other racers what do you think , what does that tell you ! Find me one racer that does not know there is work being done to the heads ,like grinding etc. and blasted to cover it up, or our favorite go to Acid , for the forty five years I have been around their is few things that stand out, keep who does your work private ,and if you dare tell some one hope he or she cant afford the cost ! also never say your heads have had enhancements ,only NHRA can use that term as they have managed to ruin stock by looking the other way as they see fit ,it may have something to do your lawyer or who did your heads ,and his lawyer ,I just may have read that somewhere now let's see ! I could go on about the trans ,and the electric shift etc ,but I think my turn is up !

Re: stockers
 

The ship with Farmer Dismuke, Greg Xakellis, Cloy Fitzgerald, Dave Danish and several others aboard sailed too long ago with the real rule book on board.

Re: stockers
 

I was dockside ,and waved so long to each one of them ! 😉

Re: stockers
 

I always assumed class racing was an “honor among thieves” deal. Gray area, loopholes, creative interpretation.

Re: stockers
 

There are quite a few racers in stock and super stock that really don't know if they are legal or not. They have their work done by someone who tells them they can make their car go faster and it will pass tech. Hopefully most of the work performed by these folks is actually legal but I've seen a few examples that if I were the tech guy, I sure wouldn't pass it.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: stockers
 

It's interesting when you see Stock Elim.engines for sale that have Stef's oil pan, lightweight crankshaft, etc.listed.

Re: stockers
 

Due to the fact that over the last few years the NHRA tech team is thin. There is little chance of being "questioned". They use to question if you had the correct hood, emblem, etc. Another point, how can a "stocker" engine cost $20k? I just saying, or am I envious?
I been apart a few times and passed, I know I feel ok about my car, and "ok" is good enough for me.

Re: stockers
 

Well when they stop teching cars and the only time you get torn down is if you go to Indy, set a record or go 1.20 under, people that have no integrity about the rules will cheat. It's NHRA that has to enforce the rules or there's no sense to even have stock or SS. I wish someone would come in as a sponsor and directly pay the tech guys to enforce the rules.




Bret Velde
2003 ??/SA

Re: stockers
 

Not stealing the post, but I have seen cars lately on qualifying list that have moved 2 classes away from their shipping weight/factor...…..has the rule moving one class up or down been deleted ??? Maybe I missed the change or is this part of the new do it yourself mode ??? Just curious.

Re: stockers
 

My two cents...

After many years of bracket racing, watching class racing from the other side of the fence, and helping several friends with their S/SS cars, I was finally able to put together my own (first) stock eliminator car. I stepped in deep, going right to A/SA with a 440 Six Pack Challenger. Most would say that's crazy, but I have gained a lot of knowledge over the years and have great support from many experienced class racers, so I felt that I could put something together that was decent. It has been a struggle to have the rulebook in one hand, a wrench on the other and put a car together that runs under the index. It should not be easy, but it should be possible - by the rules.

The double race (Sportsnats & LODRS) at National Trail Raceway this year was an eye-opener. With the message that Indy would not have class eliminations, it was clearly "the" race to be at because there was possibly no other opportunity to get that always sought after class win. WOW, what a field of cars... it drew the best cars from around the country and they put on a show. I was personally very observant of the Stock eliminators that were in attendance. I was appalled at the some of the blatant visible illegal items on many cars. If some racers are brazen enough to install those parts on their cars, knowing full well they are not legal...it makes you wonder what is inside the engine & trans? I am all for being creative and smart. Testing, testing and more testing of new parts, new settings, moving cams, moving weight, chassis settings... It becomes almost an obsession, and I really enjoy the challenge, but the rulebook is always in arms reach.

This should not be easy...class racing is special, and stock is the most difficult IMO. I have talked to so many people (mostly bracket racers) not familiar with stock and when you explain the rules, they just shake their heads and ask "how???" I love that reaction.

Some have said I'm naive, some have said "it's stock, and nothing is stock", some have said "they all cheat because they never get checked"

None of those statements is acceptable.

We have a rulebook, and the racers that choose to participate in class racing need to have the integrity to follow it. As soon as a racer knowingly makes the decision to put the rulebook aside, they become the problem. NHRA has a process to challenge other racers, and frankly I'm surprised it doesn't get used more often. If I had a fast class car (I don't) and someone paid the fee to have me torn down, I would consider it a compliment. In my eyes, to be fast, protested, and passing tear down, should earn a Wally!

I wish everyone the best, safe racing for all!

Re: stockers
 

If blatant disregard for the rule book is easily detected visually then there is a serious problem not only with tech inspection or there lack of, but also the lack of respect and arrogance of the racers themselves.

"Integrity means following your moral or ethical convictions and doing the right thing in all circumstances, even if no one is watching you. Having integrity means you are true to yourself and would do nothing that demeans or dishonors you."

Re: stockers
 

If the parts are in the NHRA Accepted parts list, they are deemed legal.

Also, there are many like myself, that ships their OEM or NHRA approved replacement oil pans to Stef to have them baffled and screened. It is within the parameters of the rule book.

One area that I have seen big violations is in the piston configuration such as thinner ring grooves than those shown in the spec and still the piston has the correct accepted part number.

I was discussing this subject with a well know engine builder that builds some of the fastest engines in the country and he told me that NHRA has told him that he is one of the few engine builders in the country that has pistons with the correct ring grooves and location.

Re: stockers
 

Cometic

Re: stockers
 

Ok, the rulebook is kinda confusing. Says baffles/windage trays acceptable, then "modifications of any kind prohibited". I took that to mean things attached to the block .ie windage trays ok, but no pan mods. One of those gray areas I guess.

Re: stockers
 

Clear as mud.

Re: stockers
 

This forum made up mostly of active racers continually speak of the sustainability of class racing but on the other hand there there’s cars in competition aren’t in compliance with the rule book or so I’m told. With that be said isn’t time that the racers take responsibility for the future of it all and stop blaming the sanctioning body? I loved Brett Velde’s suggestion of a sponsor that will subsidize the cost of a dedicated technical team. Pursue that great idea and police the questionable characters within your own division. If you see something, say something. Make our sport great again!

Re: stockers
 

What's in it for the sponsor?

Re: stockers
 

Integrity of competition which enhances viability and sustainability of the class racing format, which will exponentially boost and maintain the participant numbers by also and hopefully increasing payouts for the foundation and heritage of drag racing.

Re: stockers
 

I know a lot of stock racers and none of them are cheaters. Who are these cheaters?

Re: stockers
 

My goal is to walk the knife edge line and never cross over to the dark side!

Re: stockers
 

This again?!?..... OK so why don't those who want to throw stones put a crowbar in their wallets and post the protest money? Accusations from behind a keyboard is just beating the dead horse. Post the protest fees and show everyone your accusations are accurate.
The silver lining in all this is that you haven't really made your mark until you are accused of cheating. It's the best compliment that a good racer can get.

Re: stockers
 

For the love of class racing that has been around for over 50 years and is the true backbone of NHRA. Whoever the sponsor, I'm sure they would profit for the support they're giving the racers. I haven't crunched any numbers, but I bet the $$$ would not be outrageous and I assume the tech guys wouldn't mind some extra $$$. Might even bring some out of retirement for the right price LOL. I think the main hurdle to overcome would be getting NHRA to stand behind the tech officials when they enforce the rules. Just an idea that I've thought about for awhile.



Bret Velde
2003 ??/SA

Re: stockers
 

So, the sales pitch is that a company is going to profit by putting their logo on the shirts of tech guys that are hired specifically to go after racers that are anonymously accused of cheating? That sounds very promising!

If cars are so obviously wrong and you feel it is ruining class racing, how about pointing out the errors to the racer first? They may not even realize that their car is wrong. If they don't fix things, protest them. The original post doesn't sound like this would even require a tear down. I don't see things that are so obviously wrong taking a lot of time to police. What am I missing?

Re: stockers
 

That right there is the #1 issue.
The #2 issue would be getting the Tech Officials to all agree on the interpretation of an overly vague rule book.

Re: stockers
 

And the guy accuses people of Obvious cheating. Races .... a Pacer
Really ?So Captain obvious what do you see