Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

So, lots of folks are praising the last couple of S/SS races. They're saying they will attend next year..This is assuming there will be similar races next year, from the same promoters.
I made a few calls, and from what I hear, these two events didn't exactly end up in the plus zone, monetarily. If this info is incorrect , please advise me.

Now ,what are we going to do to keep them happening?

First, let me say that we're never going to replace NHRA as a sanctioning body. We need people who are ready, willing and able to go to 8-9 points meets , so they can race on the big stage with 60 other guys and gals. This way, we still have a rules structure, a semblance of a tech dept. and HP factors , to keep everything reined in.
These races need to be an alternative for those who won't or can't play the NHRA game to the max.

I've talked to a few friends with promotional experience, and they believe, as do I, that class racers generally don't care to spend 6-9 hundred in entry fees for a chance at 40-50 K.. 5,000 to win, for a couple hundred entry, as in Kenny's race, seems to be reasonable enough...or is it?

Of course , all opinions are welcome, but I'd like to hear from the promoters and / or track operators, as to what we could do, to get these races into the black.

Let's not regress into negativity like " too early" , "too cold", "holiday weekend" ,etc.
Rather than that , tell us when and where you WOULD schedule these events.

Thanks

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Most first round losers in the big money bracket races buy back, and race each other with the winners going into second round. That sure helps with the size of the pot. How many are willing to do that?

Not saying it can't be done, purse vs. entry needs to be realistic. The money has to come from somewhere. Can't print it like the government.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

As a former track owner I can tell you the buy backs are all about what the track makes. Nothing else.
like them or hate them they can make a race be in the black instead of the red for a track owner.
Class racers may have to consider doing it for the sake of a place to race.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Buybacks are an absolute deal breaker for me. I will not participate in a Stk/Ss race with buybacks.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Easter weekend was a deal breaker for me and that was the first possible weekend that I could have made. I'm absolutely going to Ken's race and hoping the turnout will be so good that promoters will step up to offer more of these. That said, even though I don't like buy backs it may be a necessary evil to insure these races survive. I'm a little befuddled that the NMCA races don't get better turnouts so if these races do not survive I guess that means a Wally is the golden calf that ultimately killed class racing.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Ken’s race offers a 2nd chance race for anyone who lost first round.
Capped off at 48 cars.
At a NHRA national event you’ve got to get to the 3rd round to get any money so
theirs no buy backs in their arena either.
As a former Stock elim racer I wouldn’t like buy backs, as a track owner if there in
the Red than maybe they have to raise the entry fee.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Sorry, but BUYBACKS are for ( ) races, this past weeks race at St. Louis was a stock/superstock race. Instead of BUYBACKS, there was a 5 Grand to win combo for a 100 dollar entry fee that all FIRST rd. losers could enter. Tyler B then opened up this race for ALL racers. I thought this was a WIN ...WIN... for the racer and the PROMOTER. BOTTOM LINE, these races must be PROFITABLE for the PROMOTERS ......Scheduling is crucial to the success, although you sure can’t please everyone....A track the caliber of Gateway only has a few OPEN dates to work with ....I had to laugh when Jeremy said buybacks were his dealbreaker .....Personally my dealbreaker is this....I don’t ENJOY racing when toboggans and gloves are involved ....

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Mark,

I can not speak for the other promoters as I have had no contact with them. I think its great that they put these races on to give STK/SS more options. As for what we do, I plan on doing a Class Racer National every year, and hoping for two next season. Its not about the money for us, its about racing at a good event were the racer is treated with respect and appreciated for there support.

From what I saw and heard about these two races, the racers were treated great and had a good time. The promoters did and excellent job as far as I am concerned. Whether they have them next season, who knows, but I hope they do.

This biggest hurdle on promoting these races are finding a race date that does not interfere with NHRA scheduling. Another issue is finding a track that you can work with. Fortunately for us Numidia Dragway owned by the DiMino family is a great place to promote races. You could not ask for a better family to work with.

The racing we all do, whether it is NHRA, NMCA or promotion races like these, are mostly supported by our entries. With that being said, we all deserve to be treated as paying customers. And as the saying goes... the customer is always right.

So guys, CRN will be around for sometime. We want to give a better option for the racers and make them feel like they are the stars, and are treated as they should be.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

I like racing both nhra and stock super stock big bucks races
Sheeeet I will race anywhere. But when nhra makes it near impossible to enter a national event. I will take the BiG Bucks option every time
Nhra give no zero. Fs about sportsman racers.
I swore I would not stop nhra racing till I got a Big Wally
It ain’t easy to do it. Now it’s impossible with a grade 8 just to get into a race
Nhra national events are touture. Hurry up and wait. No wait till Sunday maybe Monday
I will go to any big $$ race this side of the Mississippi over a nhra event
Spend my $$ with organization the appreciates the customer base
I race because enjoy it National events aren’t about us.
Nhra just stealing our $$$ to pay the idiots in charge.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

It was fun to watch. A handful won some money. Others spent plenty to be there. If you're well off and retired or own a business no problem to enjoy. Unless you live in these very few big buck race areas. Its a rich man's sport. How many racers can afford to spend 2-3 grand to be there. Racers that traveled 2000 miles one way. Hats off to those few heroes. Goodyear tire and Sonoco fuel should be one of the sponsors too.

Paul

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

I raced at the SGMP Southern Sportsman big money race. I ran the 20K races but did not get in the 50k. We had a great time there and the event was well run. That race had over 160 cars each day. One of my friends spoke with Jason Line and he said they needed around 150 cars to make it work. So they hit that number. They also indicated that they weren't in it to turn a profit just to give back to the Sportsman racers. I hope the race in Illinois turned out OK as well. They did things a bit different with the two 5K combo races and running the big money 25K races over a two day period. At SGMP the races were done in 2 days. They were marathons though. For me the less time I have to take off of work the better.
We all need to do our best to support these type of events and local association events to give us different opportunities to race our classes
Big thanks to the promoters that put on these two events and I truly hope they can continue in the future. Most any event of this nature need to build up some history and grow each time the event is run.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

I don't like or advocate for them either. Just saying they are a normal part of bracket racing to get the size of the pot and the purse up. Obviously the track or promoter gets a piece of the pie.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Don’t know where you race.
Buyback only happen in big bucks bracket races.
And most tracks down south do it on a regular bracket program
Not stock super stock combos.
Buybacks suck. You lost go home.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

A few thoughts...
Buyback will never fly..Neither will No heads up in the eliminator. S/SS want the races run in the traditional way.. Just the way it is.

As MJ mentioned, early Div 3 races are a big gamble, seeing they normally start in late April ., early May. ..Not criticizing these boys. They took an available date, which are few and far between at the larger tracks.

So far no one mentioned spectators....To me ,that's the key to a profit. If you pay out 90 % of the entry money ,and let the crew in for free, what does that leave you? ..Again, not being critical.
Bringing in spectators just might take more than just break out racing. Sorry to say, but my opinion.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Totally agree about buybacks but the solution is very simple. Just have a consolation race for 1st or 2nd round losers.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Highlighted above may explain something.
The big entry fee for a big purse payout looks attractive, until one realizes there are no buybacks ( traditional with class racing )

Almost all big bucks bracket races have buyback options.

I prefer a lower entry fee and 2-5 K payout, but also since I drove all that way, and if I become a 1st round runner up, I'd like there to be some form of consolation race

JMO

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

I guess you didn't watch the races last week. Each 25K race also had a 5K combo race as a so called "consolation race". There was a separate entry I think $100 for the 5K combo. The entry fee for any of these 20-25K races was about the same as a NHRA national event and the winner and RU made way more than any NHRA national event so the entry fee is not the issue. The race at SGMP was 3 20K races for $900 entry if you raced all 3 races. $325 per race if you raced one or two. The 50K race was $1000 but limited to 64 cars. It all boils down to if you want to race for big money you have to get off the porch and get there. If you do go you have to be on your game the round wins are real tough to get.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

I watched CRR and was amazed with how well it was managed, the interviews during the down time were fantastic.....loved the intelligent questions and answers pertaining to Stock, Superstock, and comp! I myself would pay extra to have tech inspection to enforce all rules and class combinations, to keep a honest and legal playing field. Now if the border ever opens again I certainly will plan on attending next year. Best part was not having to endure one single throttle stop car or track oiler! Is there a place for class racing only big dollar events.......there is for me! Tom Nolan

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

All I can tell you is from my experience at this last race. I will go to everyone I can get to!!

I hope this catches on, however they can make it work! These races are ran by people who race our classes they know what we like because they do it too and it shows . They treat you excellent! Listen to what you say, PAY YOU ON THE SPOT, showcase the baddest cars around ,do I need to go on, lol, seriously though, Bad to the bone in every aspect !!!!!


I will support these 100 percent and I'm not alone from who I've talked to.

Used to be I couldn't wait to go to a National event, the last one I went to will be the last one I went to. 2 time runs first round same day lol . No thanks . By the time the fans show up the sportsman racing is done.

Like I said bring these big dollar stock, super stock, races on. WHENS THE NEXT ONE!!

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Congratulations on your best appearing award!

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Thank you Jim it was an honor, some very ,very, beautiful cars at this event !!

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

I can say being on both ends of running a big .90 type event and the one year I did the Stock / SS race at Numidia.

Making it a profitable or breaking even type event depends on a lot of factors, if you find a sponsor that is willing to foot some of the cost so if you don't get the amount of cars you would like you don't lose your rear, there are also type of event insurance policies that can cover a loss, I have looked into before but, I'm sure someone else can elaborate. Last thing that also can help is finding a track that has a low rental cost, when you find a facility that needs to make $20,000 on a weekend to pay the bills you have to make the cost for the racers high to help cover that rental cost, I'm sure St. Louis wasn't cheap but, considering it was Easter weekend it might have been cheaper. Fans also can be a helper for the track, if you work out a contract with the track to say "Hey, cut us a deal on the rental and you keep all crew and spectators fees it could lower the rental, from what I saw in STL from the camera angle, it didn't look like many spectators.

I can attest from 2012 & 2013 the rental at Numidia was below $5,000 for the weekend which was covered by sponsors like Nitroplate and Autometer at my event but, as Ken said the DiMino family are racers at heart and understand the costs to run an event. I mean heck, even Pete and Kyle took a hard hit on the first Spring Flings at Bristol but, you see where they're at now and thriving on 4 events. I understand the buyback thing also but, seems a lot of people like what Ken did last year and what Tyler did this year with a separate event. One of the biggest complaints I always heard was if I beat someone in R1, I don't want to have to race them again in R2 or 3 or 4 and get beat by them but, the buyback round is also a way for a promotor or track to gain some extra cash with no payback if they filter them back into the mix. For the most part a lot of racers will pick the 2nd annual event over the first because it's like going to a restaurant and seeing something new on the menu but, you wait to see the other guy try it first, if it sucks, they don't waste their time but, if they rave about it (from what I heard about Ken's, Bo's, Jason, Dave & Tyler's events) the 2nd year should see an influx of cars.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

This is an interesting thread, I often wonder how the promoters of these events come up with the money to cover the payout. The big bracket races draw 300-500 cars and only have one class. Usually the entry fees are quite high or offer a weekend deal. You get one time run on the first day and then it’s all racing. Double entry and buy backs are common practice. I don’t think you will ever get that many stk/SS racers at an event, there are just many more bracket racers than class racers. I’m not a big supporter of buy backs, but they are an important part of this type of racing. It helps the track and promoter, and if you spent the money to get there, a second chance isn’t a bad thing. I think Ken has the right idea for class racers, an entry fee we are used to and a generous payout, along with a second chance race.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Still looking for thoughts on how to make the promoters some profit for all their hard work...and trust me..It is a lot of work.
Moving the round money around and playing with the entry fees is not the answer.
Bringing in spectators is the key, in my opinion.
Take a look at The Southeast Gassers on Youtube (SEGA) before anyone disagrees with me
1/8th mile only
Stick shift only
Straight axles and wheelies required
Flat out racing
No ET on scoreboard.
Car names highly recommended
Racers do not pay entry..They are the show
They do race for money..It comes from the spectator gate.
...People drive halfway across the country to spectate and race
More new cars every year

Doesn't relate? Okay, what does?




.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Mark. I think it all comes down to the promoter selling his product to the locals that might be interested in seeing some really good racing and nice cars. The promoters need to promote. Does not matter if it is a high dollar event, bracket race or a divisional event. Getting some butts in the stands is the job of the promoter. If the race is on good weekend the racers will come. Neither of the two big money events that just happened had any spectators in the stands. Obviously it takes some effort for the promoter to do some sort of advertising to get the word out that there is a big event at the track to get some spectators there. I am not a promoter and I don't know how they can make that happen but it would be a game changer if the tracks could get some money at the gate from other sources besides the racer entry fees. Both of the recent big money events the entry fees were fair for the amount of money that we were racing for. I think that the final 4-6 cars that were still in at the end of each race did some sort of split so they all got a good payday but I don't know the specifics of that.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember when McDonald's and Burger King were a treat you had to drive for then years later no big deal since they were everywhere usually lined up down a heavily traveled road.

Being a sign maker my whole life our product is a retail business best on site marketing. Discovering this coming up we started to look at why the burger chains located where they did. Worked for a guy a couple years who before buying his business worked for the biggest most prestigious union shop working up to sales then covering their McDonald's work. First time I heard about demographic studies back in the 1980s said WTF is that of course with some time understood McDonald's looked at the population in a region and income plus age and family status since they market to kids in choosing locations. They chose locations years in advance even purchasing real estate leaving it sit for years until their projections developed or didn't.

The word was when McDonald's built a location Burger King would follow since their demographic studies were very effective their success was obvious. Local sign companies competed for their business.

Raceway Park in Englishtown NJ packed the stands for every race and show. The surrounding area was middle class America raising families with dads who liked cars. A farming region being developed into residential there were not a lot of entertainment choices drag racing was popular marketed on the radio in Philly and NYC markets. Dads liked the cars his kids liked the wild show and moms likes seeing their kids have a good time. Some moms even liked drag racing plus entry to the event food and souvenirs were not expensive. It was an affordable day out with the family with smiles on the way home. and talk of coming again.

From the 1990s on the region built up, cost to spectate the event with family skyrocketed most importantly CHOICES OF WHERE A FAMILY COULD SPEND THEIR DISCRETIONARY DOLLAR ON A FAMILY DAY OUT INCREASED. Not only were there more choices these came at the same or much lower cost AND kids enjoyed a day in a bounce house or video game hall MUCH more than walking around a dirty noisy drag strip. Dads had to give in By By RP National Events and Nights of Thrills.

The reason these drag race events don't draw crowds: Firstly there is no advance marketing budget to let locals know there is a big event with unique cars racing on the drag strip. Secondly there are other entertainment choices families are familiar with enjoy and visit regularly since they are permanent establishments. Thirdly the car culture does not rage as it did years ago not saying there is none there is but is smaller and not focused on drag racing. Yep the kids like to rip their cars and street race but they do not want to actually compete on the drag strip.

If you want people in the seats the event needs to take place in a demographic that has few or fewer entertainment choices. The event must be marketed to those who would attend well in advance so families can hear about it get excited and plan to attend. Of course this all costs $$.

With all the conversation among racers about this rarely is this point brought up for discussion.

New England Dragway comes to mind they pack the place Saturday evening of a points race featuring alcohol cars and a couple rounds of everyone else. Alcohol cars are not top fuel but are loud and fast people there like it.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Frank, Several good points here.

Mc Donalds never seems to miss, do they? They can't afford to even have the image of a slow location. That's why they get what they do for franchises.

It seems to me that a nat'l event track like St. Louis must have to charge a pretty penny for rental. Possibly why we saw the early date this time..
There are plenty of "lesser" 1/4 mi. tracks that that can hold 2-300 cars...Look at the Midwest guys' tracks.

Dates..When we rented WHMP, Phx. we had a real good date , I felt. ..By the time of the race, there were free car shows and other sports events and draws all over the city. We didn't lose any money but didn't make enough to warrant the time spent and the gamble.
That event cured me of trying to promote an event at a Supertrack, in a large city.

I think you can add a few related categories that will bring in a few spectators. If you guys remember, the USCN 1 had the Nostalgia Super Stock boys brought in ,and also Top Stock..I don't think many S/S racers will complain about that.
Give the N/SS guys a free tech card, but charge any of their crew or fans, a spectator fee. ..Let them collect their own pay out amongst themselves.

2 or 3 shots at making some $$$ are a great idea.. Better than NHRA, where you could be done and off the radar by Friday afternoon.


Keep the ideas coming..

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

If you put a number on your window and you can break out, you are bracket racing

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

A very ASTUTE observation. Thank You for your contribution to this topic. I am sure the OP is thrilled with your insight.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Frank put it the best in words what i have tried to say for several years .
We have the same problems here in Australia , but for sure a smaller base racers and spectaters and far less tracks .
People keep harping on that " we were bigger than V8 Supercars(Nascar sort of ) in the 80s/90s , we had massive crowds etc "
Losing beer and cigarette sponsors hurt promotion and that has never recovered
Too much choice now for family dollar . People are time poor so they will watch a 3 hour ball game but not all day at the track .
People need a month pre advertising to be able to organise their time and money to go to a "big" event .
If you want to make it easy for Joe Blow , make it a gold coin , $1 and $2 dollars here , entry for under 18s . Realistic pricing for adults - not 25/35/45 . You just might get a few more kids in with a dad/mum or 2 if they can see it as only 20 or 30 dollars for the whole crowd when they might only have 2 or 3 hours to spare to go watch .
At this point you are not relying on spectater money , racer entry covers track , so you are not "giving " income awat . Its not there to start with

Tex

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

I think it could be a very good business model if you (the promoter) would have the racers actually show up. Not many businesses will survive without customers. Alot of them S/SS racers complain about NHRA raising entry fees, not raising payouts, contingency not paying anymore, having to be there (at a National, hell even a divisional) for a week, etc, etc. Now, you have some good, reputable S/SS racers stick their neck out for them to have a good place to race, pay them on the spot more money than they could ever win at a National or a divisional even with contingency, actually tell them thanks for coming, throw them a party, and actually have a damn good time yet no one shows up. I guess alot of the S/SS racers think its not S/SS racing if it isn't under the NHRA sanctioning. I know there is some prestige in winning a Wally, but doesn't 25k sound better?

If the S/SS promoters can keep this going, get more product sponsors on board for round wins/loses etc, make it fun with the rules still in place, why anyone wouldn't support it is beyond me....

Chris Avaritt

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

We get two SEGA races at Shadyside Dragway each year. The place is packed beyond capacity for both. They sell tons of food and souvenirs. Quain runs a great race!

The place is also well attended for the Shadyside Owtlaws and No Prep races.

The one thing that they have in common is that all the racing is HEADS UP. Fans can relate to that.

Bracket racing is dumb to most people that don't race.....

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Daren, I gotta comment here because I think you hit on an important point. A while back, I took my wife to a S/SS combo race at Brainerd. I explained Stock Eliminator eliminations (e.g. the bracket racing) to her. She laughed and said, "I don't get it." Then when two B/SA's line up, I say, "Watch this, a heads up race! First to the finish line wins!" She intently watched that round and asked, "Are there any more of those?" I laughed and said, "Now you know why I take 2-3 days of vacation every year to go to Indy!"

Bracket racing will always be a niche attraction to most spectators because it takes more than 10 seconds to explain. If you want spectators, I think you need a lot of promotion and a lot of heads-up racing. If you don't care about spectators, then then you need other avenues make money - and I'm not smart enough or qualified enough to comment on that.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Okay..Lots of folks think heads up racing would be the big draw for spectators.

Lets think about this , but first a little history lesson. Heads up class racing was all there was in the beginning . Someone got the idea to run all the class winners in eliminator fashion.. You had to win class to be in the eliminator..Obviously, you had to have class runoffs first.
Not so today..Everybody gets a chance to qualify.
But maybe , for the sake of promoting heads up, spectator friendly racing, we need to re-think this.
I'll just throw this out here.
What if class runoffs were held Saturday night, under the lights? You can imagine what the local radio commercials would sound like?
Maybe channel some of the entry and / or advertising money towards a class win. Or racers could put up a Franklin towards the pot. Strictly an optional program.
Of course, run them in order...A,B, C and so on.
How about that, Larry Hill? 1500 bucks cash for a class win?

How about it? Any merit to this?

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

How about combining classes stick and auto plus lumping three together
ABC@B weight DEF@E weight GHI @ H and so on = no limit to ballast and run them each heads up.

The winner of each Mini Eliminator could then
run off with each other winner on a dial in for a final winner.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

II think offering class is a great idea. It could be a separate entry fee and these should be some effort to pair up by class. Maybe an incentive to get more heads up. Move up or down a class so there is less in the combo. It might get a few more cars to show up?

As far as an entry fee, just figure out what it would should cost for entry, consider a format and try it out. The more side by side races, the better.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

When we first started if we won class the weekend of racing was almost paid for. Several companies paid for class, with MoPar paying the most.
$1500 class win sure! I got a $100 for the Baby Gators

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Yeah, I can remember those days!
If there was still that kind of money to be made for winning class it would almost be worth taking a HP hit.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

Side by side racing is what most drag race fans want to see. Some understand the reasons for staggered start, but a lot don't care for it. How about trying to pair up cars by dial ins, I realize it would be a pain to do, but the appeal of "drag racing" from the spectator standpoint would be huge, resulting in more paying spectators. You could still have dial ins and a staggered start, but it would be so small of a difference that it would appear that they were leaving together. There's more spectators at the start line than the finish line.

Re: Big $$$ S/SS Races as a Business Model..Viable?
 

The answer is easy for many, location. Not ll racers can afford the time and money it takes travel over a 1000 miles to race. I think Ken's race is close to a perfect set up good money fair entry multiple races for one tow. But the location for anyone out of div 1 and maybe 3 is a very long tow. SGMP had the same issue just a different corner of the country. Not to mention another race 250 miles away on the same weekend.
There is no good solution for the location part. no matter where you hold the race there are people that will not be happy and therefor not attend.