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Hello everyone, next year my dad and I are building our 71 grand prix into a stocker and we don't know anything but alot of gear, alot of converter and alot of duration. If anyone can give us some clues on all the tricks you guys know, I would really appreciate it. My dad and I bracket race around the dallas area and I will hopefully be behind the wheel of the J/SA 71 Grand Prix. Please let me know of any tricks you guys may have and I would greatly appreciate it. Good luck to you all on the up coming season.

Jake Howard
H415

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A lot of money.
Chip
p.s. Have fun too.

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I like your name that alone gets you in good with me.

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haha. thanks, Monte. Good to know we have something in common. haha

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Jake, I'll help all I can and I'm sure all the other Pontiac guys will help out. What do you need help with?

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Jake,

Let me know what you need, between Don Himes and I, I am sure we can help you..As you will find out Pontiacs are alot different than chevies, fords and mopars..... Jump in and most of all try and have fun ......LOL, Dave...1033/stock(Pontiac)

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The first thing you should do is e-mail Wesley Roberson or Bob Lang and ask for 10 horsepower back, just like the '72. There's only 3 cc's less volume in the valve reliefs, so it should be the same, or you can put the #485912 intake, and 7M5 heads on it and call her a '72 Grand Prix. That way you get the 315 h.p. rating. Then you got to get in touch with Todd Hoven, he's been working on his '72 GTO with the same engine, thing really screams. I'm sure he'll help........................

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jake welcome to the insane world of class racing one important thing to remember is the little things all equal up to big gains such as getting the car down to minimum weight 100pounds=1/10th of a second that is just a genral rule and getting the suspenion to work perfectly can mean big gains if your looking for an engine builder jeff stealy in moline ill. has realy made my pontiac run and he knows how to get the most out of an engine and last but not least get your membership into the hair club for men because you will deffinatly have days when you will be pulling your hair out trying to fiqure out what you did to lose that 1/2a tenth

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Thanks alot for all your replies. My dad and I are building a 400c.i 300 horse motor. This sucker calls for the 96 cast heads, which are on my bracket car right now. It wants the #481733 intake and the rochester 7041263. Only reason behind building the 400 instead of the 455 is that it would be alot safer to turn her 7200 - 7500 and its rated 25 h.p less than the 455. We also have every original part laying around. What motor/application of pontiac did you build? I'm interested in all pontiac stockers! funny thing is, the 71 grand prix has the 72 grill on it! lol. speaking with Jerry Hefler he told me Xeno or Zeno in arkansas builds a hell of a qjet. I'm wondering what tricks i could use to get her about 7-9 tenths under at atleast qualify than looking like a bunch of idiots! lol

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First of all you do not want to turn a 400 Pontiac 7200 to 7500. Build the car as a 1972 Grand Prix with the 250/315 455. this would make it a H,I and JSA car.4.33 or 4.56 rear end gears, shift 5400 to 5600. 5800 to 6000 thru the lights.455 is much better combo than the 400.

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Whatever combo you choose,you will need a good acid man.

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from looking on the NHRA website, it seems that 72' only had a 300 horse 455. Why are you saying that the 455 is a better combo when you can't turn as many rpms safely as a 400? Just trying to figure out what combo will go best in my grand prix. I have heard about acid etching from a few stock racers around here but you can't do it a very big amount because NHRA is cracking down on etchers now. Please let me know on any 400/455 combo's that any of you have built and what would be the way to go. I appreciate all your replies.

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The 455 is a good low rpm torque motor and I think thats what it will take to move that much weight at the start. Big rpms are hard on parts ia an engine that wasn't designed for it. Use the 455s big torque it will be cheaper and its been proven competitive.

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would NHRA let me put a 455 crank in a 400? it would be basically the same thing just smaller main bearings? I have a 4.21 stroke crank with the 3 inch mains for the 400 i currently have in the car. If anyone has some 66 cast heads for sale let me know. I didn't see the 315 horse 455 on the engine blue print on the NHRA website. What does this motor call for as far as heads intake and carb? I could build the 325 horse 455 that would be an I or H/SA i believe is what it comes out too. this is for the 71' motor.

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Jake, let's slow down a little bit. First off, You must not be looking at the NHRA classification guide correctly. In 1971, the 400 cube engine is factored from 300 to 320 h.p. and the 455 is at 325 h.p.Now in 1972 the 400 is factored to 310 h.p. and the 455 is factored to 315 h.p. Now you can clearly see that the 455 is a much better deal. Now if you get the '71-455 engine defactored to 315, its all even! BUT, if you don't get it defactored, your better off getting the '72 parts and calling your car a '72. Do you follow me so far?

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Jake---You're off to a great start my boy ------ "Etchers" --- that sounds so much better than just plain cheaters . Dave is right - that Pontiac is very different than Fords and Chevy's --- loads of torque at lower RPM's . As for your 7500 RPM--that's about a thousand or so too high for most Pontiac engines . Good luck and have a great time...........


PS--Don--you're starting to sound like a used car salesman (it takes one to know one) . If - come - maybe-etc.

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Jake, here's some info on parts: for the heads (7M5) call Automotive Recyclers in Rochester, Minn. @1-800-657-4403- no stock # listed, and for the intake call All-American Classics, in Vancouver, Washington @ 1-800-955-4999. They both list above parts in stock.

Jack, hope your feeling well........I'm too old to build one for myself (thank God for Billy) but I'm moist with antisipation for a younger fellow to find out what we've always known-----PONTIACS KICK BUTT

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Don are we going to see you at Moroso this weekend?

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Great, after talking to you all, my dad and I have decided on the 71 or 72 455, it seems that the 72 parts are in more supply and basically the same motor, just with different part numbers. Don, I appreciate all your research for me and all the numbers. What duration cam would you suggest and as far as converter and rear gear ( as a fellow post says 4.56 or 4.33 ). After talking to Hefler he says A1 or Munsinger makes a great high stall converter. What stall would you guys recommend for my torq machine? Don, I am with you 100% and appreciate all the great feedback!

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Stall for the 455 would be in the low to mid 4000 range. 400 a little higher
It's not legal to use a 3" main crank to make a 455. I won't say it hasn't been done though.
Listen to these guys .There's about 200 years of experience here, now that Jack is onboard.

Mark

Blue Streak Converters

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jake the 72 is a good combo been running it for years in super stock with the 7f-6 h-o heads
as for 7500rpm no way you will drop the rods right out. my combination with roller cam and worked on heads max tourqe is around 5000 and peak hp is around 6300 with a stocker it will be lower for a convertor
i would go 3500-3800 stall gear around 410 maybee 4.30 nothing more remember use the tourqe i would say in a stocker keep the rpm around 6300-6500max top end

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Don, I am very young at an age at 18 and a college student. My dad has run pontiacs for years and my first bracket car ( 76 trans am 50th anniversery car ), every motor we have put in that thing has been awesome. I love my pontiac!! Any of you know what a good duration would be for this application? And with the 7M5 head that makes 315hp, I noticed the 250hp motor with the 7M5 heads was a 2 barrel. Is the 315 application the 4 barrel with the 7M5 heads?

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I saw it wrong the 250hp motor with the intake #485912 and 7M5 head is the 250 horse 455, my mistake. Atleast that is what was listed on the NHRA engine blue print as the factory horse listing. Says the 300 horse 455 for that year came with a 7F6 head, but didn't come in the grand prix's :(

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Jake, yeah, the 315 motor is the 4 barrel. If possible get a '71 HO carb with the single booster. Check with Danny Ashley of Q-Jet Performance. It seemed like it was worth a tenth on my old K/SA LeMans wagon. As far a converter is concerned I'm a big fan of the Dynamic Converters unit (1-877-846-5876) Ask for Frank Lupo and tell him I refered you. He'll take good care of you. Now lets see what your Prix has to weigh. You can run the '72 in J/SA at 4108# with driver. Probably 4.30 gears, pin the front end and a Dick Miller or Alf Weibe set up in the rear. I'm going to check with Todd Hoven on the cam duration, but somewhere near 260/250. That sound close Yak, Jack, & Dave?

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Where do you look to see the build and car classifications? When I look on NHRA they show me very vague info and that the 72 model has to weigh 3838 empty, or are you trying to say that if I were to weigh it at 4108, I would be in J/SA and if I was at minimum weight I could run H/SA like a guy in the previous post said. I have been writing down these numbers and appreciate it so much. Hopefully I can keep this pontiac tradition alive! Maybe I can have a season like Tibor Kadar in his 77 trans am! Great season finish for one of us Pontiac guys!

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The car is a natural I/sa car add weight to J/sa lighten to H/sa hope this helps.. Also the guy from Ark. is Deano....as in Dean Oliver....yes he's good....I have a Danny Ashley on my car and it work great from as low as 2000 rpms. I don't have Danny's # at hand but can get it if ya need. Oh & listen to "The Don"! he knows his shxx! How many non turbo 301's have ya seen run low 13's? He & Billy don't have the bugs worked out yet either ;)

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Yeah, Don definately has done his homework! Oh and Don, I guess I am trying to figure out the difference between the 250hp 455 and the 315hp 455. It seems they use the same head and intake. I think that is where I am confused

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The way I'm reading the guide the only 455s in the GPs were the 200hp 2barrel and the 250 hp factored at 315hp, thats the one you want.

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Oh, ok so from my understanding the 250hp motors now were factored to 315hp now, where they were originally factored at 250hp and NHRA made them 315 now?

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Yes, the factored 315 hp is what you use to determine your weight which determines your natural class then go from there. Get all the weight out you can then put what you need back in in better places.Have fun thats big time important or it gets to be work.

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The 72 Pontiacs were rated differently with a new net rating system. NHra just brought those engines up to where they were more in line with the 71's. The head and intake casting numbers were the only difference, spec -wise.

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So this particular motor doesn't call for the 7M5 heads or the #485912 intake? Sorry about all the questions, just trying to figure out what all I need to get!

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Jake, you've got to get yourself aquainted with a rule book and nhra.com. The Lucas Oil page in particular. On the right side of the Lucas page you'll see the word "competition". That will draw down to a list of links. Look for "stock car classifications" and "engine blueprint specs". The blueprint specs call the motor, we're talking about, a 250 h.p. 455 cube engine. The classification sheet says at the top 250 h.p., 455 cube and at the bottom of the column it'll read 315. That is what NHRA has factored the 250 horse motor to. Do you have it now. It just seems more complicated than it really is or over the last 40 years I'm just used to it......

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Right on, the classification on NHRA didn't have the factored h.p on the bottom as the lucas oil page did, or I just over looked it. Thanks for all your help, Don. If you know of anyone with the 72' motor and which cam they used in it, please let me know. I believe we are going with a 30 inch tire and maybe 4.56 or 4.88 gears and when I call dynamic, through the faithful words of Don, they will give me the right combonation! I will also call Danny Ashley for a 71' HO carb. I hope we hit the right combonation and I wish you all good luck this up coming season. Lets keep these pontiacs going! I hope you all do as well as Tibor Kadar did this season!

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Jake, the 4.56 gears worked fine on my old K/SA wagon at 4395 pounds. That makes your combo at 4108 pounds needing a 4.33 gear with the 4.56's being the most you'll need. Remember what everyone has told you, it's a "torque" motor, not a "RPM" motor. Your going to go thru the traps at about 6000, not 6500 or 6800, or 7000. I'm going to get in touch with my buddy Todd. He just finished his motor and it ran very well. Maybe he can come up with something I've forgotten......at my advanced age, I forget a lot of stuff..........Oh, by the way, I have an old phone # for Danny Ashley. If you need it, let me know...................later......

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great thanks alot Don. I would like the phone number for Danny Ashley if the one posted is no longer available. I really appreciate all your help. And Don, an old saying goes, you're only as old as you think you are. lol

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Q-Jet Performance
765-674-5102
3:30-7:30 EST M-F
I will be glad to help you not just with a Q-Jet, but also with your combination as my last two Stockers were Pontiacs. Danny

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Hey, Jake

You need to take five and stop jumping around all over the place.. I would suggust you call your NHRA tech guy for your Division ? or call Wesly @ 318-396-1358, tell him what you are trying to do, 71 or 72 and he will set you up... Just in-case you don't know who he is, he writes most of the spec changes for NHRA..This way you will know EXACTLY what part numbers you need !!! He is the MAN...........Good Luck, have all your questions ready ahead of time, so you know what to ask..... Danny Ashley, is great on carbs and will put you right in the ball game.. He also has run Pontiacs for many years..... You have to be careful in reading the rule book, it will tell you the following parts # came with those years. Then you find out that it was only on firebirds or GP.. I am building a 1973 firebird with a 400ci and we had problems finding the right heads, so be smart and talk to Wesly he will be able to set you up....
Dave...1033/stock (Pontiac)

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Jake,

You need to back -up and take five.......... instead of jumping around asking about cams and gears, etc...You need to talk to NHRA tech guy for your Div. , have all your questions written down ahead of time and go down your list.. That way you will have your answers right from NHRA and you can then get all the correct part numbers you need... If you can't get a tech guy, call this guy Wesly @ 319-396-1358, I am sure he can help you..He writes and updates all of the spec's...He is the MAN.. Don, is right on with the gears.... Also,Danny Ashley is the best on Q-jets and knows Pontiacs and will work with you to get it right... As, Jeff said earlier
you won't be shifting a stock Pontiac over 6,000 RPMs for long before it comes apart...You should know they make all their HP down low with torque, not RPMs.. As long as you shift them low, they will live and go fast when you increase the RPMs they slow down and break..
So, start listening to this guys, they know what they are talking....... Dave...1033/stock(Pontiac)

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Sorry, for the double post....?????