Indy - no tech and when no ahfs
 

I'm a little confused and don't say its because I'm getting old. We have always had AHFS at Indy except in the last several years, hadn't we? Catch me up because I really can't pin down the year.

Tech left when Mr. Bruce did.

What year did we quit being brought into line with a combo(s) that was soft or those who were flexing the rules a little to much?

Do people really believe it's ok for an engine to out run another vehicle by 4 tenths at the thousand foot finish line?

And don't say "You need to work on your stuff".

Look at some of the issues. In SS. How does the 350 L98 (275 rating) at a 10 pound weight break be 400 pounds lighter than the 350/300 (318 rated) engine using the same block, same dart heads, same runner volumes, chamber 2 cc bigger on L98 and actual deck is +.020 installed justify the weight difference? What's that worth? On the outside a tenth at the most being generous. Are they really that fast or just under weight?

Shoot, 400 pound difference you would need an 000 light and your opponent would need to sit on the tree at least 4 tenths - not hundreds

Is AHFS an issue for everyone or do I need to hush? I always enjoyed seeing two fast cars trying to win and not take a hit. A slaughter is not a race in my opinion.

I remember Joe Scott, Cantucci, Mr Worner senior, and the other boys in Div 1 we raced with complaining about the 318 being soft. Was torn down 6 races in a row. Then we'd go to Indy only to have Jimmy DeFrank out run us by .02/03. Guess we were both soft.

Why is AHFS being spoken of that it is something new? We've gone to Indy and other tracks throughout the years trying to push the other cars out.
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Now I did enjoy Lincoln and the the boy out west running each other the last couple years. Pretty equally paired. This year most people hid from the others. I enjoy good racing? Is this NHRA's fault or the racers (and I am in no way, shape or form saying they don't have issues)

But if they were both brought into line would it not be just as good to watch? May have other players.

Let's move on to stock - your turn. How does a stocker go almost as fast as a SS? I just watched one combo out run another stocker in a heads up by 8 mph. Really?

I get no one wants to take a hit but are you really accomplishing anything. I never played the ladder game to chase a heads up race when I was the fast car. Wasn't nothing to prove. Did look forward to running the other fast guys, heads up. Must be a testosterone thing.

So anyways, when did AHFS go away at Indy and what was the real reason?

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

2014 was the last year the AHFS was in effect. I remember it well for I received 29 hp after the race. I know of two combinations that got a stroke of the pen power reduction without going by the rules of the in place AHFS , and they both won class. Go figure.

Maybe it was boring for you but for us it’s great fun!!!

We are all glad that you’re still a fan and care about the direction of class racing.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

That should have never happened in my opinion. I would think the idea is to bring in parity at some point and not ruin a combo. Smacking with 29 seems excessive. Maybe 5 repeatedly, as needed?

Glad you had fun!

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Since everything is basically the same, I would just switch to that combo. Should be an easy switch, if you need any help I would be more than happy to help with the fuel map to get you going. You will have to run GT but its the same HP or look for a 90-91 Camaro roller and run either GT or SS.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

That's not the point and that's not the problem.........
But I think you know that.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Billy, I understand the point and the problem. We've been beating this dead horse for many years, you only have 3 choices. Stay where your at, switch to the combo you think is better or quit. That's the hard truth and I think you know that. I understand her frustration completely because I ran her same combo (350/318) for many years.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Herbie, Not personnel. That's just one of the many combos that are like that. I get protecting it, who wants power. Shoot, can't even brag about being fast when its a slam dunk? There's may combos that need some help, one way or another.

Take Armstrong or Fogle back when. Both combos were beat w/ hp and they still came to the top. Those cars were/are fast.

FOR S/S - I think the solution is to place all the fuel injected cars in the same class where there is parity to a point - more so than carb vs FI cars like they did back when. Parity being at least within a tenth

I stand corrected. Just heard that Boucher, Campolito, Fisher and Jim Hale in the barn for stock. Looks like they are pulling heads if car lost 1st rd. Checking cam and carb/t-body if you won.

SS: Belanger w Jacksons Car, Worner The World Champ and Wagner.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

If they would ever switch carb and EFI cars in different classes, most of us would go back to carbs. I would have no problem with that.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Campolito vs Fisher heads up next rd. Both in tear down. Boring

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Yup, been glued to my laptop the last 2 days, because it is boring.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Been on the fence and in the stands watching, because it's still Indy and it happens once every year.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Mike, if you would reset the horsepower on the 315 combo it would be beat to **** again in two years like it was 15 years ago in about 2 years. I was at the Gatornationals when 3 racers with Cavaliers beat that combo into submission.
Don’t blame the racers for finding a “starting” combo and protecting it according to the rules!
There are plenty of combos out there that are better than the L98. 305 and 360 drag park come to mind.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Byron, the same people complaining have been running the same ETs for the last 30 years, with all the aftermarket parts now you would think they would run better. No reason a 350/318 combo shouldn’t run like Wagner’s or Gaffeny’s ����*♂️

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Herbie - shouldn't be hitting the key board late at nite :). We have never run Em on kill at an NHRA event so how does anyone know how fast Em can go nor does anyone know what parts are in it. Just an FYI, both Lincoln's L98 - which is prob the fastest out of the L98 group and EM's 350/300 come out of the same shop. Both have the ability to make the same power. Only difference between the two engines is 2 cc in the combustion chamber. Not sure how that warrants a 400 pound difference at a 10# break. Can we make some improvements? Absolutely! Would it be smart or stupid to spend $xx dollars to pick up a .05-.1 only to still be behind the L98 by .3? If you think so lend me the cash.

BTW - Gaffney (rinehart) could only mustard a .90 run this year at Indy. Brian - good job and congrats on Jegs win - was 1.10 under and I'm guessing, not on kill.

Last year, the Gaffney was .4 behind the fast guys if memory serves me right.

Moving on. Missed the point of this thread.

The racer(s) are not the issue in my opinion unless they are willfully cheating which is different than pushing the rules and taking advantage of what is in place. Grateful that NHRA is checking the car in the other lane and hope they continue to do so. Neither of you are cheaters, nor have I ever seen either of you chase a slower car on the Q sheet.

The issue is the in-effectiveness of the AHFS. Back when, you would show up at a race to find out you received HP. Very subjective. Not sure it wasn't better because out-of-line combos were corrected in a short period of time.

Since 2008, AHFS has not been effective, in my opinion.

Appears NHRA either over reacts or doesn't react when they should for whatever reason. Ex: Overreacting by giving Larry Hill 29 hp at one shot.

The hemi's dominated the Q sheet at Indy one year. Made up many of the top 30 spots. AHFS kicked in and brought them back. Maybe too much. NHRA knee jerked couple years back and gave them index back making them competitive again.

Modified cars dominated another year. They got whacked and for the most part haven't recovered.

They system worked to a point. Was it perfect? No. Did it need human input? Yes. If 1 racer is blistering the track and the others are not then maybe the engine should not receive power. If they're all hot, maybe they need to be brought back to a competitive level, not a death sentence.

The L98 - used as example only - has been running without at adjustments for over 10 years. There are many others the same way w other OEMS's.

Nobody wants HP unless your dumb. I get it. Just want a somewhat level playing field which is one of the basis for class racing and why we run off of indexes.

Maybe they should place all the fuel injected cars in the same eliminator like they did with stock back when. There are many solutions without stirring the fish bowl and killings all the fish.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Mike, look me up at Charlotte. I’m not going to throw people under the bus on a key board. I would like to know more about your combo and some of the crate motor Chrysler combos that only use two barrels when they have four lol. Seems you pick and choose who you throw under the bus. FYI I could give you and Lincoln the exact same motor, car and drive train and I guarantee you he would still out run you by 2 tenths. It’s called work ethic and Lincoln is never satisfied.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Mike, the L98 hasn’t been run with aftermarket heads for 10 years. The racer or racers that ran it in its early years ran the oem heads. If you ask them they will tell you they were not that good. When the dart heads were approved, it became a stout combo. But thanks to smart racers, the hp has remained the same in SS and only got dinged a little in GT (dish motor).
I would like to know the hp history on the 318 that you run. What hp did it start at, what is it now and how did it get to its current hp?
If you’re so envious of the L98, you can buy mine at the end of the year!

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Not personal or intended to be if it came across like that. There's both sides here. Guys not going to Indy because of AHFS and people going because of it. Same coin and there needs to be some middle ground that all can give in to.

Lincoln is a thrasher.

Not sure how long everyone was using the Dart head. I know the original wasn't too good. Jacobs prob had them good 2 years before us. We've had them for at least 5 years on the 350/300. They were out there before that. The point wasn't so much as the L98 not getting factored as the in-effectiveness of the system to bring some level of parity without burying a combination.

In the earlier example, the hemi's and modified might of had 2 years of rein. It wasn't a long period. The AHFS takes too long for any OEM type, GM, Ford, Mopar and it is not consistent in application. Needs human interaction.

The 318 we ran started out at 235 and the big valve is now 254/258 with replacement heads, in GT. Even though we were fast in the northeast and received power, the 327/250 of DeFrank's would out run us every year at Indy. Neither Tommy or I could beat him. If I recall right, and I may not, Hames and Tim use to have some battles and i believe they were pretty close.

Later on, Layer had a 305/254 carb and I had a 318/254. When we ran we were .02 a part on the track and 1 .014 to a .016 light. Close good racing.

In my opinion, that's what its about.

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

I can shed a little light on this. We had one of the first L-98 083 original head combo's rated at 265HP . Gulius ran it with a carburetor because at that point it was hard to find dyno shops, or people that were well versed enough to run and break them in on Fuel Injection. With his dyno Quadrajet, John got 635 HP out of that engine. It made almost as much as his 041's. In his words, it was "nasty". At the time we did not realize that the little 48 mm throttle body was going to take 15-20 HP out of that number. But that's another story. Problem was, every 10 runs it was springing a water leak. They leaked everywhere, combustion chamber, runners, and bowls, they were just a junk scalloped head casting. Dave Layer and myself looked over available heads from Eldebrock, GM, and Dart. We came up with the 070 Dart as being our candidate. We hollered out to the ranks and several of us wrote letters to NHRA, along with Dave being on an every week chat line with Bruce. Eventually Bruce agreed to allow the head. Dave Layer made 4 sets, and three of those leaked almost immediately. So we reached back out to Bruce and ask if we could "Trade Up" to another casting. We choose the Dart 010 as it was thicker than the 070, and with SS being filled back up to the allowed spec's anyway, could he possibly allow it. He wanted to see it, and I drove a bare 010 Dart out to Indianapolis so Bruce could have a look at it. I awaited off to the side while he looked, measured, and thought. He agreed and we then built new Dart 010 heads. I don't think originally those 070's, or 010's made any faster ET's as the OEM 083 because of the 50 lbs. you had to put with them. But currently they are faster because of the relentless push from guys like Lincoln, among several others...

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Jeff,
Out of curiosity, we’re the OEM and first set of Dart heads junk or they just wouldn’t accept the innovative port design you wanted?

Nick

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Bubski like "my god" You pick a combo with marginal cylinder heads !! Then lobby for replacement heads !! You shoulda picked a 2 barrel class and pissed and moaned you'd like a 4 barrel !! And all would be good in "class racing" What ever happened to choosing a combo ??

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

Bubski is sure that anyone would like to have the most "innovative" set of heads possible !! However this is Stock n Super Stock and that is not the reality of the situation !! YOU have to work with what YOU choose as a combo !!! NOT WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE !!

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

You know, Id love to be able to answer that. I'm not a head porter, and the man that did them is gone. And I miss him dearly. I do believe that Dave was taking the same port as he had in the 083's and just running them on the CNC machine. I remember him saying something like that, but we would have to ask Randy Brewer, as he was working right along side him. Anybody that ever owned a 624 Combo in SS had the same issues. They were sprinkler systems..
I remember sending those 083's to Rays Crack repair and he told me from the get go the material was like pop cans melted down and re-used, or something to that effect. He described them as these casting were like they had been laying on the bottom of the ocean for 100 years, and now we're trying to weld on them. Like spiderwebs down inside. ( I had purchase brand new castings from over the counter at the Chevrolet Dealership) After the third time in about six weeks of sending them back, first the bowls, then the runner and then a hole the size of a pencil eraser in the chamber, he said " Jeff, I hate to tell a guy to scuttle a brand new set of heads, but I'm afraid these heads are not raceable. I just put six grand in those things, and that hurt .. LOL

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

That's saying that 85-92 350 cu in. Camaros and Firebirds could not run in the Super Stock class, as the 083 head was the only thing GM put on them. People tried the 217 casting which was worse than the 083. (It was a GM replacement head that came on cars and boats and was superseded by GM. If you went in and ordered a new set of 083's,, 217's came in the boxes) I know, we ordered a set) . Do you really think that boxing out the most popular car that GM had for a decade is what we should have done?

Re: Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs
 

What Bubski is saying is that no one should be excluded from racing SS!! However when one picks a combo ,one has to be aware of the pitfalls as well as the benefits !! Build an aerodynamic Camaro to beat up on the chevy 2s and Ford and Mopar 60's and 70's cars !! Thats a great idea !! better front end bodywork to bracket race and a nice soft factor to start out with !! However the heads are not up to the task of being mercilessly over heated on the BBQ grill to braze the exhaust ports to pick up like a "second" on ET !! HAHA Then you mill off the entire intake flange on the 85b !! Then you CNC the heads to some template which is incompatible to the castings you have and someone owes you a replacement head ?? I suppose if Bubski ran a Chevrolet stocker i'd be begging for .904 lifters cause I really hate wiping cam lobes !! and would sure like to take advantage of the profiles available in .904 and its not fair cause someone else has them !!