TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Can a Torquehead System be used in place of an Opti - PCM In Stock?

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

No. You have to run the Opti Spark. You are allowed a crank trigger. The Opti Spark works just fine.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Just spoke to Tech Director Pat Cvengros.
Cannot use crank trigger in Stock with an Opti
can in Super Stock

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

The crank trigger has been allowed in Stock for the LT1 since the 1990's. I built and raced three LT1 F-Bodies. All with crank triggers. I can't remember how many times I was torn down. I never had an issue.

If you want run a stock ECU, go ahead....

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Gump is correct. Under section 8 for Stock in the rule book:

DISTRIBUTOR
Any battery-operated, stock-type ignition permitted. Crank trigger systems prohibited unless OEM distributorless ignition. Distributorless ignition must retain OEM number of coils. See General Regulations 8:3.

In this case for your LTjuan the Opti is considered distributorless and a crank trigger is permitted.

One of the issues with the TorqueHead is the multiple coils. I don't know why you would want them over a single coil, but that is beside the point. Your combo only came with a single coil (it is plenty) and that is all that is permitted.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I will add that a GOOD aftermarket ignition box and coil is worth the investment.....

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Not really concerned about the multiple coils.
Do not understand NHRA’s reasoning but that is the rule.

It is a nice bolt on system and ECU easy to tune.
Our B-Body clubs like them.
Especially the Boosted crowd.
Agree single Coil is enough.

Until this weekend was fine using TunerCat for ODB1 PCM.
Been a 15 year labor of love learning most of the Files.
Excellent ECU. Opti is reliable.
Just discovered it’s limits.

Thanks for the help.

D

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I use the Holley Opti replacement and I am not aware of any limits I have encountered so far. Can you elaborate?

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Dan,

With all due respect, in lieu of trying to reinvent the wheel. Listen to the guys that are running the Opti-Spark system. On the long run, it will be more reliable, better performance and cost effective.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I am !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Having a fight with Pat Cvengros over this RIGHT NOW !

Dan
Where did you get that information from?
I disagree since it clearly has a distributor with a single coil.
Pat Cvengros - Pacific Division Technical Director (626) 250-2295
----------------------------------------------------
My response !!!!!
Found out mine is considered a Distributorless System
So a Crank Trigger is fine..
D
----------------------------------------------------
Previous Conversation;
No, crank trigger ignition systems are only permitted on distributorless ignition systems.
If you switched to Super Stock you could run a crank trigger with the Opti spark distributor.
Pat Cvengros Pacific Division Technical Director


Pat thinks the Opti s not a Distributorless system !
So I am confused.

Needs some help here !!

Dan

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Follow up EMAIL from Pat !!

Dan,

Unless you have documentation from Chevrolet stating it is a distributorless system it’s not; so a crank trigger would not be legal.

1. Distributor: a device in a gasoline engine for passing electric current to each spark plug in turn.
Pretty clear to me you don’t have a distributorless system.


========================
SO I am confused

Just sent Pat KRATLIF's response.
Pat's response is below.

Dan
Thanks for the heads up, we will have to look this weekend at Pomona.
As I mentioned previously, unless you have documentation from Chevrolet stating it is a distributorless system it is not.

Pat Cvengros Pacific Division Technical Director (626) 250-2295

Then sent GUMPS response...

Pat Responded
You can believe who ever you want,
I’ve answered your question based on how NHRA officials interpret the rulebook.

Crank triggers are not a legal option for the Opti Spark.

Pat Cvengros

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

So what you are saying is that you just rocked a boat that was on calm seas....

If enforced under this interpretation, this would park pretty much every LT car running Stock Eliminator! I'm pretty sure that Holley doesn't have a harness. I don't know about the other systems.

Keep being AWSOME Dan!!

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Hard to put the worms back in the can after it's opened. Good going Dan !

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Y E A uh !

Out did Billy Nees today !!
Not a Dodge Manifold.

Did manage to squeeze Tomato paste out of a Rock !!

D

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

You continue to make friends every where you go! Lmao

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Not even close Dan. all you have done is start a conversation that doesn't need to be had.
Where does the OEM optispark pick up it's signal? From the crankshaft? Then it's a "crank trigger" system.
IMHO, (and I'll probably catch some heat for this) any OEM ignition system that uses a crank sensor and a cam sensor to sort out the timing events should be able to use an aftermarket type crank trigger system.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

A crank trigger is nothing more than a crank sensor, the LT1 came factory with a crank sensor and nowhere in the rulebook says you cant use aftermarket sensors.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Billy and DDP;
Then you better have that conversation with Pat Cvengros!
What we say does not count if he believes otherwise.

These are not our rules !
Pat is the arbiter not us !
Read the exchange….

I ran into the limits of the OBD1 PCM.
Sought advice from people more experienced than I.
The 8.3 rule was confusing comparing available products out there.
So contacted a Technical Director.

The feedback from CR is in conflict with what Pat said.
So before proceeding over the rulings cliff.
I want clarification !
Wouldn’t you?

D

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Dan, the LT-1s that I am dealing with use a Holley PCU wired into the opti-spark! How can that be illegal?

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Maybe you should point out to Pat that the later LT motors had a crank sensor?

You are not a very popular guy right now. Maybe it's time for you to fix this?

A simple google search will reward you with a photo of the later timing cover that clearly has a boss for the crank sensor....

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Guys, I hate to pile on ..BUT for AWESOME DAN I will make an exception. Dan, use the crank trigger that EVERYONE else is using …….REGARDS,

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I do not know these things.
Reason for asking lots of questions.
If what you say is true.
Pat will figure it out.

This is not a popularity contest.
It is FACT Finding.
Careless if it hurts your feelings.

As for simple google search, there is no such thing.
Searched everywhere for relevant solutions for my car.
There is a lot of information and limited time.

Did not even know until Billy mentioned about the Holly PCU.
That looks good, is there another that works?
How does it work with the existing PCM?

Companies advertise to sell their top systems.
The plethora of information is tough to sort out.
I have not done this before.

Just wanted to know what and how it works and what is legal.

D

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

The crank and cam sensors are the optispark, that's why it's called an optispark. It's an optical sensor that picks up a light source that's blocked by a timing wheel with slots to show where on the rotation TDC and every other cylinder is and the rpm increase.

I dont need to talk to anybody because I can clearly read the rules. The motor has a crank sensor and needs one to function.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

It is very clear that you are "not real smart".

My first post in this thread was an attempt to point you in the right direction. You have not hurt my feelings. You have wasted a bunch of my time responding to phone calls about this.

From here on out you are on your own.

See you on the bottom of the qualifying sheets,

Daren

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Entertainment: Priceless


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Then why do you ask the questions and then not listen to the answers? It's the 21st century! An LT-1 is easier to build than a 283 or a 305!

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I do read and listen.
Building an LT is not a problem, the accessories are.
It is confusing if you have not done it before.
Drag Racing is not my life.
I have no disagreement with any of you and rely on your responses.
You are not my enemy!

Pat Cvengros says what the rules are not you.
I sent you the email responses. You have his email.
Not one of you has reached out to him to help clarify them.
What you say means nothing as he a Tech Director and owns the rules.

I have 15 years as a Soccer Ref, decades on the Pitch as a player, Coach, Team and League owner.
Worked many critical games running up against Rules.
I go through daily physical training, monthly seminars, annual testing, learning rules changes every year.
NHRA is no different and respect their governance.

I sent you his responses and you beat on me…!
Your complaints do not phase me ! So F off!

I gave you the information.
Based on the feedback it is now a gray area.
Help get a clear answer from Pat.
This is beyond my understanding and may/will impact you!

The exchange was posted. Fair warning!
Help or you may not like his upcoming decision at Pomona.!

D

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Dude you made this mess were not cleaning it up, I'm not your mother.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I've never raced in Stock, but I guess I'm a potential future Stock racer like anyone else.

This has been a pretty enlightening thread. I'm well aware of Dan's history here on CR, but I'm having a hard time understanding how Dan is being vilified for reaching out to those in charge to get a clarification on a legitimate question in an effort to comply, before learning a hard lesson at the track.

I could easily see myself falling into the same situation.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Oh, the "clarification" issue isn't just on Dan. The person in charge in Glendale made a correction/clarification without researching it.
Are you familiar with the 1992-1997-8 LT-1? It has no distributor! It has no place to put a distributor! It is unlike any other conventional small-block Chevy. The spark and fuel are controlled by a "crank" position and a cam position sensor through the ECM.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I'm not, but in this case it clearly sounds like a distributorless ignition system, so those currently running a crank trigger should feel pretty comfortable instead of raging at Dan to 'fix this'.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Dan should stop sowing the seeds of confusion. Nothing needed to be "fixed".

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Interestingly enough, in GM F-body shop manuals, they actuall refer to the optispark unit as the "disributor ignition system."(see attatched) I don't believe one could quite classify it as a "crank trigger" looking at the way it works. Correct me if I'm wrong(being that I am primarily a FFFord guy), behind the cap there is a rotor that uses slots on a gear with an optical sensor to determine when a spark should be administered. This sounds to me to be more similar to a "hall effect" type distributor used in 80s fords and chryslers rather than a traditional "crank trigger." IMHO the rule should be written to include all fuel injected stockers in determining if crank triggers are allowed in stock or not.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

When the LT-1 engines and other EFI engine makes were introduced into drag racing, Jim Skelly was the guy that approved the use of aftermarket EFI ECU's and also approved the use of the crank trigger systems on engines that have a crankshaft position sensor in lieu of a single distributor that handles the ignition duties. The current language that everyone has used throughout the years was written by Jim and has not changed.

This same issue has taken place with other engine makes of ignition systems that have been previously approved by NHRA and later on deemed to be illegal only to be rescinded when NHRA found the original acceptance.

Below is a depiction of the OEM crankshaft sensor position on the LT-1 engine and Jim did not see an issue allowing the use of a crank trigger system in lieu of the OEM sensor because they both perform the same function.

https://decg5lu73tfmh.cloudfront.net...1484587805.gif

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Yep. Someone should not have poked the bear!

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

The Optispark is considered a front mounted distributor, but a stock LT1 from GM comes with both a crank sensor and a cam sensor. Thus my comment when I quoted the rule book that an LT1 should be allowed to run a crank trigger since it comes with one from the factory.

The rule book is a bit out dated, but how can you not allow a car in the guide to run the same equipment as it came from the factory? Would tech bounce a purely stock LT1 because it has a crank sensor?

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Kyle,

It was the premise used by Jim Skelly to allow the use of crank trigger systems on the LT-1 and other EFI engines, based that the cam and crankshaft sensor are separate functions from the cap and rotor that all they do is distribute the electrical current to each spark.

The same situation I went through with Pat on the Cobra Jet 429 Ninja when he told me I could not use Coil-On-Plug (COP) because it was based on a Windsor engine.

Well, Ford Racing had gotten approval to use either a distributor or COP ignition and it had been approved by NHRA and was told by the Indy Office it was legal to run COP.

By the way...Happy Birthday Kyle (Mr. Sheep Husbandry Expert...) :D

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

Hahahaha! Thanks bud.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

I do understand the argument that you could consider a crank trigger as being some sort of crank position sensor. The issue is that the crank sensor was not used to fire the ignition in Lt1 cars. Lt1's weren't actually fitted with a crank sensor until 1996. The computer still is only using the camshaft position, determined by the optical sensor behind the distributor cap, to fire both the spark and injectors. The crankshaft position was actually fitted to detect any misfires by using crankshaft speed and position to determine if there is a slight drop in crank speed at a certain interval.

Re: TorqueHead vs Opti
 

When did Pat become the National Tech director?
Sometimes it takes a long hard look at the wording and punctuation of the rule &
understanding the function of the factory systems
I would to go to the top to get the correct/final answer