Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Hey guys, in NHRA, what was the 1st year a combo that came with ONLY a 2-speed auto trans, could use a 3-speed auto trans ?

Common example would be the PG Chevy combos that could then use a TH350, because of the new trans rule.

For those of you who had some 1st hand experience with a Chevy PG equipped Stocker combo, that switched over to a TH350, what was the aprox ET change ?

Aprox how much quicker is a common Chevy Stocker combo with a 200 trans, than with a 350 trans ? I'm talkin about both trans having the very latest & quickest upgrades. Another way to ask it may be: How much quicker is the best currently available 200 trans vs the best currently available 350 trans in, let's say, a popular sbc Stocker combo ?

Thanks to those who have the time & will relate their experience in this area !

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Another way to ask it may be: How much quicker is the best currently available 200 trans vs the best currently available 350 trans in, let's say, a popular sbc Stocker combo ?

Thanks to those who have the time & will relate their experience in this area ![/QUOTE]

Hi
The short answer is - pretty darn close..... the difference ends up coming down to the combination of first and second gear ratios that work best for you.... the (high end) 350's have a few more of these combos available than the 200 does... The other factor is, of course, how much experimenting you are willing or able to do.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

I don't remember the exact year but it was in the last decade.
S/S was first, then Stock, then 4 speed stick shifts. (oh yeah, then clutchless in S/S)
The 3 speed deal wasn't put in to benefit the little guy with a 67 Camaro..Trust me.

I would say that if you took a 350 and put in a 2.75 low , an aluminum direct drum, and were really good with a lathe, you could come pretty close to an entry level 200 like I build.
The Pro Trans and the Coan are in a different league. As Ange said, lots of different ratios available too.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

" I don't remember the exact year but it was in the last decade..."

So, for a popular sbc combo that previously had to run a PG, aprox how much quicker could they run, with a good 3-speed ? Hey, I'm just assuming they ran quicker.

I know that lots of bracket racers run a Glide, for consistency & less traction problems. Just assume that most former PG Stock racers choose to now run a 3-speed. Is this correct ?

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

How much quicker? Usually some, if you can hook it.

Most PG's are now 200's except for maybe 67 oval port Corvette.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

The rule change was around 1990. Give or take a year.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Sorry George, but you are WAY off …..

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Just curious, were most PG users quick to change over ?

Or, were there a lot who wanted to stay with their PG ?

Were there some of the heavy hitters that did a lot of testing, before switching over ?

It just seems like this was one of those major Stock rule changes, & since I was not involved, I wonder how big of a deal it really was, for the PG racers, back when it happened.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

You can bet your azz the guys with 67-8 327 /275 Camaros were quick to change over.
The three speed 350 LT 1 cars started at 275 also...They are now 340 something...
The 327s are at 270!

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Mark,
Who makes these ratios?



Stan

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Not sure who makes them but Coan and Pro Trans offer several.
To be fair, McClay 200's have some ratio options but he's at the higher end of that style.
He won't sell parts to the public. You have to have one of his transmissions.
Leo G at Remac will sell you a 2.91 planetary for the 200.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Mark,
Thanks for that information. I knew that McClay offered a 200 with a 2.91 and Rossler offers a 400 with 2.97 and Coan a 400 with 2.96. I had not heard of anything lower.


Stan

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Good afternoon,
I think I might have been the last hold out in H/SA. I took the Glide out this year at Numidia after I lost at the points race. I installed my McClay 200 and Munsinger converter. This was by no means a back to back test. The car was geared for the three speed from the beginning of the year. The car went from 1.54 to 1.56 60 ft.'s to 1.44 to 1.46 60 ft.'s . In all honesty the car probably picked up a tenth. I can tell you from sitting in the drivers seat racing against another H car with the three speed, they would pull out on me and once I got going they didn't drive away from me. They were at least a half to almost a car length on me in 60 feet.
I thought I could over come the deficit with torque but that never materialized. My car hooks very well with both transmissions , it is certainly easier to race with the Glide. I did so for almost 40 years. So as you might imagine, it takes a little getting used to the launch of the three speed. Plus getting used to the new shifter, but we've made improvements.
The converter and transmission testing and "red" T- Shirts will be starting over again next season. I don't know if this answers your question, but let me know if I didn't get you what you were looking for.

Respectfully,
Henry Kunz 1534 H/SA

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

"...In all honesty the car probably picked up a tenth..."


So, for others reading this who also made the switch from a PG to a 3-speed, after you got the whole 3-speed set-up tested, tuned, & finalized, did you also realize an aprox "tenth" ET improvement ? Or ? :confused:

Again, I'm just trying to determine, from actual racers who made the switch, as close as possible, how much quicker a 3-speed is than a Glide, in the same car, same class. Obviously, this is comparing top quality pieces, matched to the car, fully tested, tuned, & optimized.

Just from what little I've learned from this thread, it seems that the larger gains are realized from the lower power, lower torque engines. Is my assumption correct ? :confused:

With this in mind, would the 2-barrel version of an engine likely gain more from a 3-speed conversion, than for the 4-barrel version of that engine ? :confused:

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

I know it was around this time they allowed a 904 in place of a 727 behind a 340. Any corporate transmission that could bolt directly to the engine was allowed.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

George, I know NOTHING about Mopars but,….you are replacing one 3 speed trans with another 3 speed trans. The OP would like to know when the GM guys could replace their 2 speed trans with a 3 speed trans. And it was WAYYYYYY after 1990….

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

ok i know the answers ....
i got the turboglide approved as a 3 speed for 58-61 chevys in 2010 i believe was a struggle as i also had to weigh one show it was close to cast iron PG it was 9# lighter full of fluid ... then within a year nhra opened the flood gates and allowed any GM trans.

turbo 2.75 was about .10 better after 3 converters
291 metric is .10 better than that good 350

i weigh 4500 lbs FYI

captain

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Protrans offers ratios down to 3.20, I assume they are all based on a 904 style gearset
http://www.protransracing.com/images...IO%20CHART.pdf

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

When I got a gearset from ProTrans I talked to the owner of the company. I got a set for my 2bbl Cleveland Cougar's C4. He told me how to drive the car with the new set Then told me that there were WAY faster cars than my "N" stocker that were running fast with a Steeper 1st & 2nd than what I had just bought. He didn't give me #'s. For mine I made more than 1 change when I installed the gearset but my car is quicker now.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

"...in 2010 i believe...then within a year nhra opened the flood gates and allowed any GM trans..."

So, 2-speed GM cars have been able to run a 3-speed now for just over 10 years.

Anybody here disagree with that ?

So, for you guys who race a full schedule, including nat events & div races, AND are familiar with LOTS of Stocker combos, do any of ya'll know of any Buick, Olds, or Pontiac models, which came with the 2-speed Super Turbine 300(IIRC, Olds called it Jet-a-Way), which have been actively racing in Stock, in the past 10 years ?

For you older guys, who were running a full schedule back in the late '60's or at least by the mid '70's, what year was the last time you saw, or knew of, a SERIOUS '64-'66 GTO Stocker, running an auto trans ?

The reason I ask, besides just my being a Pontiac Freek, is because the 2-speed BOP trans I mentioned is the only auto trans that was legal for those cars. In the mid '60's, there were lots of 4-speed GTO Stockers, especially the Tri-Power models.

But, I have only run across 1 pic of a '64-'66 auto trans Stocker. It was a '64 model, named "Lil 2 Speed". From the markings, looks like it was running either AHRA or IHRA.

A few of the big Pontiac dealers ran some pretty quick 4-speed GTO's, especially the Tri-Power '66 models. But, if I've seen one running an auto, I don't remember it. I just ASSUME this is because of the 2-speed.

Apparently, those 2-speeds could be built strong enuff for Stock Elim duty. My trans guy said he could easily build one that would hold up behind my 455 bracket engine. And, I think the TH350/400 converters will work in the non-lock-up 2-speeds.

Hey, I haven't even ran across any info indicating that a competitive '64-'66 GTO, of any kind, ran Stock in the '70's & later. I suppose that most Pontiac guys moved up to '67-up 400/455 powered Birds & Goats, with Q-jet carbs & TH400 trans.

If any of you guys have any info, or insight into this, I'd appreciate hearing it !

Below is the only pic I have of a 2-speed GTO Stocker.

Edit: Well, I decided to look back thru my '64-'66 GTO pics, to make sure I hadn't overlooked an auto trans Stocker. To my surprise, I DID find one. On the rear fender, it even says it was an AHRA nat record holder. The reason I haven't used this pic very much is because it appears to have a Tempest grill, rather than a GTO grill. So, I assumed it was probably not legal & only ran some local outlaw track. I never even noticed the "AHRA Record Holder", until tonight. By chance, does anybody here know anything about either of these cars ?

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

On that 65 2 door sedan, between the Tempest grill, missing headlights, and funny looking front bumper, I have to assume that the AHRA tech department was much more relaxed than NHRA and Farmer were.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Yeah, as I mentioned, the non-GTO front is the reason I haven't used the pic much, & never even looked close enuff to see the AHRA record holder words.

Here's one POSSIBLE explanation. It has B/SA on it. That doesn't look to be the way AHRA marked it's Stockers. So, I figure the car set the AHRA record while being raced by a previous owner.

Or, could be the same owner & driver, but was being run at a local NHRA track, when this pic was made. I suppose it's also possible that there had been some sort of front end damage & the non-GTO parts were a quick, temporary fix, 'til the correct parts were acquired. Mere speculation on my part, since all I have to go on is what you see in the pic.

Anybody know the car, the driver, or the dealer ? Built by the Agee bros. Driven by Dick Agee. Dealer was Thompson Pontiac. Engine balanced by C & H Automotive. Have no idea what city or state either business was in.

Just Googled Thompson Pontiac. Got a current GM dealer in Springfield, MO. Don't know if it's the same family business, or not. Says this business has been family owned since 1919. Sent an inquiry message about the car. Am interested to see if there is anyone there old enuff to remember the car.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

No, but Formula 3 would be 2 bbl. I believe. Maybe the record or standard was soft enough that this car was competitive over there.
I can't imagine any 2 speed being very fast with 1965 type converters.
I've seen 2 speed Buick Stockers but they had the switch pitch converters. Pontiac didn't use it.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

BTW, I think the 326 HO with a 3 speed would be a player if they took off about 30 hp.
It's an 11 to 1 motor.
They were very fast on the street in pure stock form with a 4 speed.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Could a only find 1 reference. I hope it is the same person / car.


Dick Agee drove the Thompson GTO to a national record.
Agee's official elapsed time in the 1965 GTO was 13.30 seconds


Stan

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Mark,
You seem to know the AHRA rules. The car in the picture does not have the original front bumper. How can it run stock?

Stan

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

"Formula 3 would be 2 bbl. I believe..."

Yeah, but the '65 Goat just has B/SA on it. ASSUMING that was for when that car ran at an NHRA track. Don't know.

"...Dick Agee drove the Thompson GTO to a national record.
Agee's official elapsed time in the 1965 GTO was 13.30 seconds..."

So, when & where did this happen ? Is the class listed ?

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

IF I were going to build a Pontiac Stocker, I'd go with one that came with a Q-jet. They just seem to provide plenty of gas for whatever engine you're running. Have run good on 301 Stockers on up to 428 powered 8 sec GT Super Stockers.

But, I reckin AFB's & 2-barrels have also won lots of races. The '66 GTO 335hp AFB engine has only a 300hp factor. So, maybe it would be more competitive than the Tri-Power engine, @ 60hp less. I'm assuming that the Tri-Power would NOT make 60 more hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't think I'm gonna try to hold my breath 'til somebody builds a 2-speed Pontiac Stocker, converted to 3-speed. If somebody did, it would be like you said about the 326. Would need a big hp factor reduction. For this, don't know what combo would be the best to build. Seems that the '66 Tri-Power GTO did the best of the 389 GTO's. Don't know how low the hp factor would have to be, to make it competitive. It's 360 now. Would need to be a lot lower than that.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

Norman Warling & Bob Michael run pretty good with their '62 Tri-Power 389 Stockers. But their hp factor is only 275hp. Lotta difference in that & 360hp, for the '66 GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

I suppose that if I had to choose a 2-speed to 3-speed conversion Pontiac to build, without doing any more research, I'd choose the '68 Firebird 350HO. The hp factor is only 305hp, & it uses a Q-jet. And Adam Strang ran some 10.80's with his 4-speed 350HO, in E/S. Not the best Pontiac combo, but far from the worst.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Beginning of the 2009 season was the 3 tenths index hit 2010 was the any trans change .

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

So what do you thing that combination would run with the auto (E/SA)?


Driver Position Car No. Class Index ET Ov/Un
11 Rick Kolber 7341 E/SA 11.90 11.018 -0.882


From Vegas today. Don't know what brand / manufacture Rick is running. But if that Pontiac combination could run 11.00 or under it would be pretty good.


Stan

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Honestly don't know.
When we first started going to Epping ,they had a modified version of AHRA Stock that they ran for the eliminator. Some of the stuff looked pretty strange to us.
Maybe someone from up that way could chime in.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Good observation and one I had not thought of.
E/SA is a serious class. The 400's have enough trouble keeping up with the 340's and LS1 GTOs, IMO

That combo needs more HP off. Again, IMO

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

"...if that Pontiac combination could run 11.00 or under it would be pretty good..."

Since Adam Strang ran 10.80's, with a stick, I assume that same engine would run somewhere around that 11 sec number, with the correct auto trans set-up.

The E/SA index is 11.70.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, an 11.00 car would be competitive, at most races. Wouldn't make the 128 field @ Indy. And wouldn't win the heads-up runs against the really quick E/SA cars. But, it would win some heads-up runs, & would have a chance to win any race in which it didn't have a heads-up round.

.700 under would have been just below the middle of the field @ the recent div 2 race.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r=100#indextop

If my calculations are correct, the 350 '68 Bird is a natural F-class car. Can add some weight & run G/SA. 11 x 305 = 3355lb

The G/SA index is 12-flat. So, anything quicker than 11.50 would be fairly competitive. Low 11's would win some heads-up rounds.

Could remove some weight & run E/SA. 10 x 305 = 3050lb. So, that would be about 300lbs difference.

I think you must add 170lbs for driver, to arrive at the min total weight for the class you'll run. So min weight for E/SA would be 3050 + 170 = 3220lbs. For G/SA, it would be 3355 + 170 = 3525lbs.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Plus 170 lbs for driver

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

Were'nt there some 2 speed transes made in the mid-late '60s that were actual Powerglides with the BOP bell housing and cases for use in Buick and Pontiac cars, such as a Buick Special with a 350 Buick engine equipped with a 2 barrel, as well as some Pontiac Tempests with a 326 or 350 Pontic engine? I seem to remember hearing about them, but never paid enough attention to notice one for sure. A friend of mine in high school had a '65 GTO with a four barrel 389, a 2 speed trans, and all, and we put a 400 in it. The trans we removed was a Super Turbine 300.It was a direct bolt in, only the drive shaft had to be cut down for the 400. The 2 speed I'm asking about is a dead ringer for the aluminum Glide used in everything Chevy, but it didn't have a Chevy bell housing, just a BOP unit.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

If it had a mechanical kickdown, it was a 'glide. Not in mid 60's though. The BOP pattern glides were used in the early 70's , due to a shortage of T350's. Fire at factory, I've read.

Re: Stock Auto Trans Rule Change History ?
 

"...actual Powerglides with the BOP bell housing..."

Yeah, I've only actually seen 2, in person. One was in a '70 or '71 Esprit Firebird, IIRC. It was in a U-Pull-It yard, in Shreveport Louisiana, & still bolted to a 350 Pontiac engine. I bought what was left & brought it home with me.

The other was in a '70 or '71 Tempest/Lemans, also in a wreckin yard, in Bastrop Louisiana.

Found some pics online. Apparently, some had all the holes drilled. Some had only the BOP holes drilled. Some of those early '70's Pontiacs came with a Chevy inline six engine. Don't know if those with auto trans came with a normal Chevy PG, or one of the dual pattern PG models.