Pump gas in stock
 

Is there any way to run pump gas in a Stocker and pass fuel check? I've been running pump gas and it seems to be a little quicker at a 1/3 the price. Thanks.

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I use to have s dielectric meter. Fuel check had the range for s particular race gas. I added pump gas to my race gas until it was at the top of scale. This was10 years ago and not sure what meter they use now. But straight pump gad will not pass.

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Yes, you can run pump gas…NO , it will not pass fuel check. When I started racing stock eliminator in the late seventies PUMP gas was legal.

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Thanks. Fuel check makes 0 sense to me anyway.

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Very interesting comment about your car running better on pump gas. West coast LEGEND Cal Method told me that when he was forced to switch to RACE GAS , his 283’s slowed down also ……

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[QUOTE=Darrel Goheen;651178]Is there any way to run pump gas in a Stocker and pass fuel check? I've been running pump gas and it seems to be a little quicker at a 1/3 the price. Thanks.[/QUO Won't be long before they ban all leaded fuel in this state ,we are going green you know ! Thanks to old Governor what's his name !

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Darrel do you have any idea of how many fuel additives that are out there that will increase HP that won't make it pass fuel check. I'm glad they do fuel check. Wouldn't want to loose a heads up race to someone that has spiked their fuel. BP

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What was that stuff some were running a few years back? I remember at Indy smelling it as cars were called to the lanes and it even smelled caustic.🤢

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ERC

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Wow no fuel check , alittle nitro goes alone way my friend . If your looking to save money on race fuel shop around or buy in bulk with a friend and store it correctly ...Just saying ...

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Of course a lot of pump gas has ethanol and I think a lot of it is also oxygenated at different times of the year.

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Yep. As much as I don't like the cost of racing gas, you're going to need it . That and fuel checks, if you're going to have class runoffs, heads up in the eliminator, qualifying for 128 cars, national records, etc.
Can you imagine what some racers would come up with? Let's see what happens with ERC ,mixed with Nitro, a dash of C25 ...sorta like "gain of function" research ;-)

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It’s about time we hear from a certain E/SA Camaro racer that picked up ALMOST 3 tenths with a Pro stock ERC blend that he stumbled upon. Not calling him out by any means but MAYBE he will share his story, OR MAYBE not ….

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Good evening,
Yes pump gas in a low to mid compression engine is faster.
I used to get pump gas to pass by pumping air into it like a fish tank. The oxygen would boil off some of the chemicals in the pump gas and it would barely pass. Then NHRA started asking what I was putting in the gas to make it pass, I didn't have the heart to tell them it was what I was removing. Pump gas is no longer "gas " its fuel! There are some many chemicals in it that there isn't enough room for Gas. So the last time I tried to run it and NHRA told me - NO MORE PUMP GAS.
Its possible at this point that with all the chemicals in pump gas, maybe NHRA feels that they can't police it. Any way Its a heck of a lot cheaper and it would make sense (economically) to use it, but policing it is probably the root cause for not allowing it. That's pretty much my take from what I experienced in the past.

Respectfully,
Henry Kunz 1534 H/SA

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I guess it isn’t a big deal. I’ll use pump gas when bracket racing and use race fuel at NHRA events. Thanks for the discussion.

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Darrell, regarding your question about pump gas being quicker than race gas this is my assessment based on study and some actual race experience. Race gas is really about “octane rating” to prevent detonation and not about being more powerful.

With the laws and liabilities limiting lead content the race gas companies had to start using lots of “additives” to boost the octane level, that’s also the sweet smell you get. Today there isn’t much “gas” in race gas, another reason it cost more. These additives hurt power in a couple of ways they burn slow during combustion which changes their pressure rise on the piston and spreads it over a longer period which helps with potential detonation but not power. You typically can run a little less ignition timing with lower octane fuel. Actually the biggest reason is lower octane pump gas typically has more BTU’s of energy per pound than our legal race gas! So in your case with relative low compression you don’t need the octane to counter detonation it then makes sense that it will be faster when used. I proved this to myself when living in Denver as I took race gas out of my stocker and replaced with pump gas and picked up a tenth! This was back before specific race gas’ was mandated by NHRA and the old pump gas was still legal.
Why then do we run race gas? A couple of reasons, when pump gas had to comply with clean air regulations and started adding oxygenated additives, i.e. corn alcohol + other things NHRA’s compliance testing at the time for fuel went out the window. By them restricting us to Race gas they could set tight standards for each and compare when testing at the track, that’s why we have to declare our fuel type and brand. The other reason I suspect is they saw an additional money $$ source from the Fuel companies as each has to pay to be on the “accepted” fuel list.

I'm not saying you cant add "stuff" to gas and make it more powerful such as ERC and VP does with some of there highly originated fuels but those are thankfully not on our approved list as they are harmful and more expensive.

Hope this helps and yes there is more to the story but this is my quick take on your question.

Jim Parsons

(Past FIA international Fuel and Lubricant Committee member)


FYI: I tried sending this to you as a private message but it said you box was full.

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Excellent post by Jim Parsons.
I knew the basics, but that spells it all out.

Now, for the other experts on this subject, what is the low end brand that will pass , or be passed off as something else? I had heard that, a while back, some guys were using AV 100 LL , and calling it something else on the list. Apparently, NHRA figured this out, and put a stop to it, somehow.
PM me, if you don't want to post this info ;-)

Re: Pump gas in stock
 

The lower the CR the quicker a peak cylinder pressure will decay. If I can have a lower peak cylinder pressure but have it at a point farther ATDC it is possible to have the same if not more turning force on the crank. In many cases peak cylinder pressure is 10 to 14 ATDC where a good amount of that force is trying to push the crank out of the block. Remember how the rod crank angle plays into using cylinder pressure as turning force.

Stan

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Let me address one other thing regarding fuel. Racers are very creative. The fuel in the cell /tank is not ALWAYS the fuel that the racer submits for fuel check. ….

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I don't understand............................;-)

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Just for conversation, here is the rule, in part, for gasoline, in the sports car club of america (SCCA) autocross rulebook. FYI "STREET" is more like "Pure Stock" and "Street Touring" is a little like "Stock." The rule used to be "must be pump gas..." would it help or hinder NHRA Stock class if a similar rule was adopted?

"3.6 FUEL A. Street and Street Touring® category vehicles will use fuel which is “Federally approved for use on public highways,” and which does not exceed an octane rating of 93 AKI (Anti-Knock Index = [R+M]/2) with an al lowed variance up to +0.9. Fuel may not exceed 15% ethanol (E15). "

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Sounds great but I'm unsure exactly how NHRA would and could test " Pump Gas" at the track.
As stated before in this thread, there are many different additives that can be added to increase performance, so fuel checks are mandatory for a level playing field.
That said, lower class Stock Eliminator cars are normally lower compression engines and budgets can be a concern Pump gas would be a cost saving for these racers and may in some cases help performance.
N and lower class cars, there's no roll bar requirements, simple rule change for N and lower class Stock Eliminator cars would be NO FUEL checks required.
Sure would help the traffic jam after the scales at some tracks!

Steve Teeter STK/SS 620

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The only comment I can make on this subject is the cost of the fuel that I consume at a race (and I'm running C16 which isn't cheap) is probably the least expensive part of the weekend. If the difference in cost between one of the lesser expensive race fuels and pump gas is going to break you, you're probably in the wrong sport.

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yeah, but every little bit helps.....make a difference to people just barely hanging on.

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C11 is now 17.00 $ a gallon . At a Divisonal double, with 3 TNTs 3-4 Qs runs and going 2-4 E runs
The difference between running C11 and pump gas could be as much as 150 00$ or more. Times 6-8 Divisonals and some National events, saving could over 1K annually.
Not a small number for some...

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Only thing I could think of is they (being NHRA tech ) could pick up a sample from the nearest let's say Shell station. Yours would have to look the same at fuel check. They're not gonna do it but maybe this will get them.
NHRA, are you listening ? Shell Oil shakedown!

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Good idea. Like you said though, NHRA has no motivation to do so. If it ain't their idea, it ain't a good idea.

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Friend raced carts and they all brought fuel, it all went into the same big container. Everyone run that same fuel and whatever else was put in that fuel tanker. Certainly Sunoco ( or Whoever) would love to be seen dispensing fuel from a pretty fuel tanker.
Some deal along those lines could work but, OHHHH the bitchin’!

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Good morning Mark,
Funny you should mention Shell. Shell's Regular at the time when I was still using pump gas was the only one that would pass the fuel check. Also at the time there was a list available that showed the amount of "gasoline" still left in the fuel and Shell had the highest amount! Also enjoyed your list of race cars, have a Great Day.

Respectfully,
Henry Kunz 1534 H/SA

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Now something like "everyone run that same fuel" would/could be interesting but..............
who gets to pick the fuel and is it always the same fuel. My stuff acts differently and wants different tune-ups on different fuels. Not to mention, a 396/375 is going to want a "hotter" fuel than a 6 cyl. Nova and that 6 cyl. Nova isn't going to run as well on the fuel that a 396/375 would need to live.

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I get this discussion is about making pump gas legal but NHRA fuel test fails oxygenate additives and they don't seem interested in a better device.



A few years back VP was promoting C9 which is high octane unleaded gasoline with no additives. 100% gasoline no oxygenates. It was marketed to circle track who had embraced it and Stock Eliminator. At the time was looking at fuels and asking questions while building a good engine.



NO it was not as fast as C11 but it did not have any of the corrosive additives. Could still run a second under the tuneup developing had good potential to go rounds plus it is lower cost. Won class at a national event with it which netted some help from VP in product and tech.



NHRA removed C9 and a Sunoco equivalent from the accepted fuel list because it did not test consistently national event to national event plus NO ONE WAS RUNNING IT! Very few racers would be affected.



In division one the only other person I met who admitted using it was a small inch heavy upper class racer. He had similar results and liked it for similar reasons. Trying to help promote the fuel over the few years it was on the list the question always was IS IT FASTER of course the answer was no so off to the C11 drum they went.

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If everyone brought their own fuel to NHRA races, and it was all dumped into one container; the explosion could be seen from outer space!

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I was using C9 when I was #1 Qualifier at Epping in R/SA. The next year at the epping natinal at fuel check they said C9 is not on the approved list? Took 2 weeks before Brian got back to me and said no one was using it??? Had to switch to C10. Us little Guys don't count!!!
1051 Q/SA

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Just a thought but would it not be easier and cheaper for NHRA to put pump gas in everyone's cars in the lanes or in the pits. One fuel for everyone, seal or lock the cap. If you need fuel for the weekend you get more and they seal the cap.
In a record or heads up run the fuel would be checked. The cost of fuel is getting crazy even at the pumps.

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Pm sent

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What about the cars that need more octane ?

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All in all, I believe the current system works well. Can you imagine what would happen if the rule book state...Any fuel allowed…..The THRIFTY racers would be running pump gas, AND the BIG DOGS would be spending $$ on exotic brands and many racers would be spending more $$ trying to keep up with the JONES …..

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I would vote for any fuel allowed. With everything else that’s allowed, why not fuel? I think they only check fuel because it’s relatively easy to do.

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I knew a guy years ago ran a low compression car, went more rounds than expected and got low on fuel. Had to do something so siphoned unleaded regular out of the tow vehicle, broke out by over a tenth !

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So there were 3 of us!

For me it was at Maple Grove points race first race of the season. Went to fuel check not in the book and didn't know why. Rick helped out got an answer from Len Imbrogno later in the day: not checking consistently event to event plus no one was using it determined by fuel check records.

The purpose of my post above was not to complain but point out that a low octane fuel was on the list readily available from VP and SUNOCO but no one used it. It was lower cost 100% gasoline with no corrosive chemicals no one ran it!

The last season I ran before taking a couple off to move was using C10 it was developing well but not much lower cost than C11. Since my combo got some HP have to run with the big boys now so am not going to worry about protecting and saving 10 bucks on fuel. Just going to have fun.