Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

This should make the masses happy, but will kill the performance parts suppliers and engine builders. This is supposedly the work of our boys Len and Wesley. Aren't they having fun?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Not only that, but from reviewing the national event registration page, it appears that some of the event quotas have been on a diet. There should be no problem getting the Sunday crowd out the gate and the track secured. '08 may not turn out to be a banner year.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

If this is true. How are they going to police combinations at divisionals? What's to stop somebody from claiming a different combo, and then going out and tripping the AHFS. Who's going to know...?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Len said he is accepting e-mails on this.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Chuck, all of us knew the new nhra was going to be hammering the little guys in spite of what they said. I hope they are ready for the new nitrohealth.org site. A guy from out west is putting it together and claims he will have it up fairly soon; a little medicine for the doctors.

Sean, they don't give a rats behind about who does what any more. But don't trip that -1.15 number...now that is something they can get their teeth into. I think the nhra tech department is done. Basically they have a couple of guys playing with the blue print sheets and a couple of guys playing with the AHFS.

Leo, so word got out that they were going to stuff this down our throats and now they are accepting emails on the matter?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

If they proceed with lowering the indexes by .2, this isn't that big a deal is it?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Despite Mr. Noland's usual misguided assumptions, this issue has not yet been decided, nor do I support it.
While there have been a large number of racers over the last several years who have asked for division event to be included in the AHFS, there does not appear to be a majority of racers who want this to happen.
Therefore, as Leo correctly stated, we would like to hear from S/SS racers on this issue

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Len is the 1.15 under with or without the proposed index change in either case?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Bruce,
The majority vote was to maintain the 1.15 under and for no .20 index adjustments for 2008.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Okay I will ask the obvious question.
If AHFS is designed to help correct poor initial factoring and bring the outlying combinations back to where more combinations are closer to being competitive why would people be complaining. Is it they are the ones with the soft combinations?
In a class where one car combination is running like SS/AH it makes less concern but if you are in a class with a bogus combination to run against to win a trophy, it becomes depressing real quick....except in the bracket part of the racing.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Soft combo's love to bitch

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I vote for having AHFS at divisionals! Len, I'm sure you'll get a lot more support for this than you think!!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I vote no for AHFS at divisional

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Len, a well known engine builder says you that you told him you were going to post the 1.15 under at opens and divisionals information this week except Wesley told a few people and now you are accepting emails about the subject. True or false?

The AHFS is full of changes that were never given advance notice or publication and with a record like that you have the nerve to come out here and run me down for misguided assumptions. You better wipe that fog from the mirror.

Sounds like you aren't too happy about us getting the word out.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

False.

Any possible changes that could or would happen to the AHFS will be put up on the NHRA website, for review by all racers, before a final decision is made to implement any such changes.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Len,

You say you never told an engine builder that you were going to make the -1.15 change??? So why are you now accepting emails on a subject that the majority of the racers are not in favor of? Why bring the subject up after it had already been decided by the racers???? Your words.

And please tell me how we got all those changes in the AHFS when nobody else on the planet has seen them published in advance on any nhra site?

Dusty, did you say something about soft combinations? I believe you ran -1.40 this year in Jr. Stock. And that by the way is where most of the fast cars will go at Opens if these guys pull this off.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Bryan

Could you please explain why you feel this way??

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I would have to say, NO to 1.15.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Bryan
The way the AHFS would work at Div races is: If you are in the top 10 on the qualifing sheet and are -1.15 you get dinged, (if you are #11 and -1.20 I guess it doen't matter?)the same as -1.15 at a National. Why in the hell would a guy like you with one of the softer combo's vote for that?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

All runs should count. divisionals,nationals,class records,class runoffs, whatever. Thats the only way to determine what the combinations are capable of. It is a performanced based class afterall. I would like to see it go back to running off the record with no breakout and no shoe polish but with all the bracket racers involved now it will never happen.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

The way to do this is to have all runs count at National events. This should suffice to help get rid of the softer combinations. All you will do by counting all runs at divisional and open races is to force racers to run more weight more oil, less timing, etc.. If you count the 2nd and 3rd round of class there will be some significant changes in horsepower ratings. Look at Indy this year if you don't believe me.

Greg

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Dave,

Where has all this nonsense come from? It sounds like Len and Wesley did have it all figured out before Wesley ran off at the mouth. The first ten can trigger the AHFS under this set up and the rest of the field is OK? They have to be kidding.

Len has already posted that the majority of the racers were not for it - so how did this plan get so far along without any of the racers knowing about it?

It makes Imbrogno look like a liar!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

All this crying and voting is gonna kill class racing. There will always be more loosers than winners and after a year or two of voting by the cry baby racers the race part of "class racing" will be gone as it is nearly now.
It's a lot easier to vote performance away than to go out in the garage and work.
There will be no need to sell or buy performance parts or for anyone even wanting to watch as performance part of class racing is disappearing and unless a friend wins the race no one could care less.
I vote to forget holding performance back, and let bracket racers go back to bracket racing. At least let performance keep up with the rule changes.
I've already stopped on my new motor for '08, no need to update if all I have to go to is a bracket race.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Bruce
I don't have clue, must be one of those internal things.

Jeremy
Amen

Harry 6674
How about 64 car qualified fields?

We need the keep "PERFORMANCE" in Stock and Super Stock. Let the Bracket competetors (I can't call them racers) go bracket race, There are plenty of them to go to. Stock and Super Stock will be fine with out them.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Dave I've been telling the twins there combo is soft for years!!! Now I guess we all see why I call them DUMB F@#$%... This funny. I'm starting to think Len answers these post just to add more fuel.... lol Bryon voted NO Bryan votes YES do they make sense?????

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Double Amen to that Dave!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Deleted. for lack of interest

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

If we all do it in the spirit of improvement, then it is all of us working together for the betterment of our sport. No we dont all have to agree, but the right things usually rise to the top. Super Stockers and Stockers are for the most part a smart group of people.

I still strongly believe that we should shy away from the "trigger" system. Engines performances should be tracked on a bell curve and matched to other engines and a standard. A standard bell curve should be developed for Super Stock and for Stock. Those engines that have a curve outside of the standard should be addressed.

Currently the system works because of the self correcting mechanism that the HP committee does by manual review. Comparing the "average" to the 1.15 level of performance *or even 1.00 under) is a serious flaw. This does 3 fallible things:

1.) Keeps all the engines that are on top right where they are (on top).
2.) Doesnt quantify properly the level of correction required
3.) Doesnt accurately reflect individual outstanding performances rather than bogus HP or parts acquisitions

The biggest flaw is that the HP added cant keep up with the enhancement of raw parts acquisition, and rules liberalizations. As we know one engine receiving 45HP is still on the top. If it is still on top, then what does that say for it 45HP ago? Some of it can be explained by rule changes, but some not.

Proposal:

1.) Run a bell curve on all similar engine combinations
2.) Run a bell curve for all of Super Stock and Stock
3.) Develop a Standard for Super Stock and Stock
4.) Plan-Do-Check-Act

A Few Benefits:

1.) Will be able to see when a rule change benefits one group more than another
2.) Predicts engines rated low or high from its performance verses rated HP
3.) Predicts "cramming" events as bell curves skew for things like "sandbagging"
4.) Mathematically adjusts engines based on their real parameters and eliminates outstanding individual performances. (American Way!)
5.) Would give you a quantitative reflection to tell you "how much" the engine is bogus when compared to the group.


I am sure everyone realizes how many cars have to go way faster than 1.15 under for the whole engine family to "average" 1.15 under. The law of averages states that for an item to average 1.15 under (or even 1.00 under), there must be an equal number above the average as below the average. It is the way all the scientific community does their evaluations. It wouldn't be perfect, but a much better and more useful tool.

Lynn

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I have been enjoying this sport since 1965 longer than some shorter than others...In the begining you sought out a dynamite combo you were sure no one in the world would pick ,you put endless hours into disassembling scraping sound deadner, aftermarket fenders just to pick up 6 lbs. Just so you could possibly have a chance to set a national record..The undisputed fastest car in the country for your class. National record holders would get free admission to the races if posted in dragster....You would paint national record holder with the pride of a new father on your fender....What has happened to this ?????? You ran off of national records no afhs....If you were smart and ingenius enough to hold record you got instant respect from your peers. people would try to duplicate your comb...how is that for an ego trip???How about throwing out the point system because most of us racers cannot afford the traveling road show....and install a national record system...You set national record found to be legal free ride in national and divisional events for the year record was set....if you destroyed record ahfs would kick in and horsepower would be added......Is this concept toooooo simple..We have people right now I would assume that can go faster than 1.15 under but could never get through a tear down...Yet if that combo goes 1.15 under automatically h.p. given. Lets get the juices flowing and put performance not sandbagging into S/SS racing......

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Dave, I was under the assumption that .20 was coming off all indexes, and didn't know the AHFS would be different for divisionals (qualifying based) than it is currently for National Events. That would have meant runs of -1.35 under with the current indexes! But since that is not the case......I would have to reevaluate!

I have said all along the number needs to be lower than -1.40 because you have the same people running -1.30 under or better at every points race to be #1 to get the bye. And if these racers don't go to enough national events to trigger reviews, then they never get hit, where someone like me who goes to 8 or 9 nationals has to constantly slow their car down to avoid the AHFS!

I love class racing just as much as anyone out here! Isn't that why most of us run Stock and Super Stock?? But when you have a fast car, and you are covered by a tenth or so..........shouldn't the AHFS even that out eventually???? I think that is what it's there for!

I'll be racing next year regardless of what happens! I'm sure it will affect me as much as it will anyone on here discussing the topic! Obviously none of us has all the right answers! And I'm sure this will all be the same for next season, so we can all voice our displeasure for another year!! No matter what is done......you will never make every racer happy!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Len,
I think GP. Hill had the real answer, count all runs at National events... Maybe we need to toss racers for lifting @ 1000' and anyone running more than 75 lbs. heavy is tossed. Maybe the tear-downs should start with the bottom 20 guys first and see how the fast they change their positions...I feel all these things would help...What do you think.... Dave,

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Footnote: When I mentioned free ride I meant you were autmatically in the show did not have to gualify.......DD

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I also want to add that I believe there should be a factor added to the AHFS for weather conditions! That has been brought up numerous times and shot down! Also, runs at factored tracks should be counted! If you can set a record at -1.40 than why shouldn't you get horsepower???

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Send your emails to Len on this issue. That is where your voice will be heard. I emailed him today and got a response back.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Let's see; presently someone can run as fast as they want at a factored track, can run 1.399 under at a points race ( and sometime collect MONEY for No 1), and then go to national events and slow down to 90 under until needed for class. This picture don't look right. The good air at non-factored tracks is a problem. What we got now ain't working. Make some changes.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

It seems to me that with all the controversy -

The simplest thing NHRA could do is -

Eliminate class racing and heads up races in eliminations.

No need to ever adjust HP

All that would be left is class records

How many classes have more than a couple of "hot dogs" that are the "class" of the class.

Every one of them would draw fire here on this forum.

Back off guys - be careful what you wish for - ggeezzee.

I am sorry but I just had to say this.

Now let her rip...

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I am new to stock. What does AHFS stand for ? Please don't make fun of me for not knowing like I said I am new to this

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Last time I looked it was 2007,not 1967.So all of us poor,
as in I dont have the money for a set of $3,000 heads
and "special" stock elim. pistons,etc. etc. RACERS dont
belong in S/SS according to the head GOD.You want to go fast maybe You should build a SS/AH car or a comp car.
Everybody Isn't Daddy Warbucksin S/SS.It seems like a bunch of mainly old hasbeens resent the fact that their little world was invaded by racers who go rounds and win races and championships.
Maybe Mr. Heads Up shold just go on a "Pinks" tour in 2008.
Kevlar underwear on,flame away............


Ed F.
NHRA #1945
IHRA #14
T/SA

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

while the official meaning is Automatic Horsepower Factoring System; it mostly seems like Automatic Help For Slugs lol.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Mr. Noland and Mr. Layer,

No, it's not an "internal thing". It appears that we are speaking about two seperate issues. These are the facts:

NHRA tech did a survey which asked for input on the following: A- adjust the index by .20 and move the trigger to 1.00, B- adjust the index to .20 and leave the trigger at 1.15 or, C- No changes and leave the trigger at 1.15. As I thought I clearly stated earlier in this thread, the majority voted for C- no changes and leave the trigger at 1.15

Regarding the seperate issue of applying the AHFS to division events and/or national opens as well as using the 1.15 at such events, at no time did I ever post that "the majority of the racers were not for it". Using the AHFS at division events was suggested by the S/SS committee. It was not "the work of Len and Wesley". As a matter of fact, as I mentioned to a "well known engine builder", it was the result of numerous racers asking for this over the last several years. However, it has never been finalized and would not be until, as I also stated previously on this thread, "it would be posted on the NHRA website for racers to review".

The NHRA tech department will soon be posting a revised AHFS system on the website and in National Dragster for all to see and give their respective input.