Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

What rules in your opinion should be rescinded?

I'll start.

Oversize camshaft journal diameter. If its not on the check list it should be for stock.

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Larry, my wish would be if we don't see a re-alignment of the recent AHFS
change, that it is modified to Mineshaft -95, Horsepower Adjustment-95.
That way they align as before, Mineshaft -85, HP Adjustment -85.

J.R.

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Hi Larry I hope you and Patsy had a great Christmas. I'm not sure how the big journal cams came about. Did the engine shops started using them along with roller bearings. And then tec decided no more roller bearings but the large journal cam were ok. As you know there are a lot of them out there including mine. To make them illegal after they have been used and accepted for so long would make a lot of expensive blocks junk. If they were to do this it should be one of those rules that they say in the year 2023 they are no longer accepted. I for one am in favor of them for several reasons. Can your car not use one? Barry

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I'd like to see them go back to no data loggers can be connected during eliminations AND NO GRIDS! I'd ALSO like to see Tech arbitrarily swapping out Racers ignition boxes.

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Un-Ring like ; return Under factory power back to factory power?

Not faulting anyone , System is at fault.

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Superseded parts and aftermarket aluminum heads.

Paul Haszlauer
C/SA 7019

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

I dont know if my block will accept the larger cam I never saw the need to try it. Trust me I have had a few cam related failures but never ran out of protentional solution to try according to published rule book.

If we are going to swap boxes in staging they need to bring a timing light and 1/2''open end wench.

The oversize ID blocks could be sleeved, mechanically locked in place, and then remachined to OEM size. A stock size cam would be pounds lighter than the 60 MM cam. My DP has a big cam and it's poundy.

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B Parker now we have fun racing against each other. Your quicker but you can't be real late and get the win. Thats what makes it fun.

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It doesn't need to be done in the staging lanes, it can be done in your pit space. They're numbered.

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Ok cool I can get a new ignition box

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Oh, I think they would give you yours back.......eventually.

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This could get real interesting real fast, unless you plan on getting rid of all the F.I. cars.

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Billy, can you explain why you do not like data loggers? After a pass I like to be able to see what my oil pressure was in the lights, the convertor slippage, what the convertor flashed and a couple of other things. It doesn"t make me a better driver, but it might help make the engine last a little longer.

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Standing by...
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2G90WmL/92484-detail.jpg

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Funny thing, I used my data logger to prove I wasn't doing sneaky things at Indy.....

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We do not have or need a grid - we have an ECU ..

BTW - data logging is embedded in the ECU and can be viewed by using the OBD-2 channel.

A result of having a modern day car with current day technology.

Swap out our ECU - I don't think so - sir ...

BTW - we participated in the initial Hellcat testing by MOPAR engineers at a Fontana rental day - hence the Demon with a TB.


Ron

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Larry close racing either way is what I like. Not sure if I can make Gainesville going to try.

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I have a grid. Not crazy about it too many things that can go wrong with it. Wish MSD still made the old digital box.

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Ok, I'm quite sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not), but can a stand alone data logger in conjunction with a grid and a digital ignition box NOT be used as a down-track timer (the last I knew, not legal)? If it CAN, then it CAN be used to control timing and fuel (and in some cases throttle control) to give the Racer a desired elapsed time.

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I know that this is a big concern for you. How prevalent do you really think it is?

Maybe random review of data by tech would help ease your mind?

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I thought the thread was about roller rockers and sold lifters etc. But this is about out and out CHEATING.
You know what they say.... cheaters gonna cheat...so if you remove legal electronic boxes that can be modified to cheat.....then wouldn't the cheaters just use a smaller box well hidden?

Re: Can We Un-ring The Bell
 

Daren, I was hoping that you would respond.
In answer to the first part of your question, I'll ask you a simple question, do you think that there are Racers taking advantage of the rules (cheating) when it comes to their engine combination? Do you think that certain Racers would "manipulate" a situation if it could give them an un-fair advantage over the competition?

I would have to say that a "random review" of a LOT of things both under the car and under the dash would "help ease my mind".

This IS the 21st century!

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Ya know, a long,long time ago, roll-out counters and delay boxes weren't "CHEATING". They were perfectly legal because NHRA didn't know what they were or that they even existed.

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Not knowing or accusing but to us uneducated or educated, it looks like a drive by wire “New” car would be the perfect weapon of choice. Can ECU’s follow a driveshaft curve like it follows a timing or fuel curve? I would say yes.

At the PRI show a few years ago I and about 60 to 80 more attended this informative ECU class and sales pitch. The list of benefits seemed endless, but the second and third benefit listed, as I remember, was “Run Tracing” and “Traction Control”!

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ignition boxes. how about run stock ignition. points and condenser if that is what it came with. As a person that was considering getting in to stock racing a few years ago, after looking at the rules decided not to and all i needed was to build a motor and upgrade clutch.car run under index as it was setup but not much more. I find it interesting that you better have the correct hood on your car for the combination you run but you can run almost any ignition you want.

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You know that's a loaded question!! I think that the vast majority of racers would pass a teardown.


There are a lot of legal ways to manipulate a situation. They are open to every racer.


I am for that too. I think that it would be healthy for the class if Tech would take a look at racers data from time to time. I had no issue sharing all of my run data at Indy. To me, that makes a lot more sense than chasing wires.


Yes it is! We live in a time where there is so much real-time information available to us that a cheater should be pretty easy to spot.

Personally, I still feel that I beat myself way too much to worry about the guy in the other lane!

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and yet there are few, if any that ever get "spotted"! Is this because there aren't any to "spot"? Is this because there's no-one out there to "spot" them? Do the people in charge of doing the "spotting" know how to use all of this "real-time information" to put it to good use? Or are they just turning a blind eye to it all because (in the grand scheme of things) we just don't matter?

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To me it seems the carburetor rules are outdated, high end cars with replacement blocks aluminum heads and trick transmissions are then forced to put some junk on it that can barely be found from 50 years ago.It would bring more combinations into it.

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Examples?

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There is a choice as to which class you decide to run. If you run a carb class then you have to run the correct size and style carb. If you don’t like a carb then you can run a FI class. In super stock you can run a FI combo in an older style body in GT or FGT classes if you want to get away from the carb. Not sure anyone would be in favor of changing the carb rule in stock or SS. Personally I like my QJet.

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Some years back Wesley and I wrote a system for Stock and Super Stock. It was based on averages for different combinations and did not punish those who worked hard on their combination. It was fair, accurate, and based on what racers were running at the time. And of course NHRA would have no part of it but they did lower the indexes by 3 I think and did a couple of other things. Bob Lang was in charge then and you could at least talk to him. Still better than this mess we have now.

And to Billy Nees, during teardown with my 360 in my 09 Challenger DP, Bruce didn't like the 1/8 " spacer that came with the car. We had all the Mopar people there and explained it was an adapter that was hand made for the 360 and there were only 3 of them made which I had one. We assembled it without the spacer beause they would not give it back. However the car picked up about 1 to 2 mph without it. I never did get it back.

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i have a 71 Pontiac Ventura I would like to race but its only legal with a 250 1bbl 307 2bbl or 72 Pontiac 350 2bbl, for some reason factored much harder than a 73. I do race it in street with the 250 and a weber 38/38 on it. If it was a Nova I could claim anything from 68 to 72 but with the wrong grill and fenders not much you can do with it.

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If you REALLY wanted to run Stock with THAT car, there's nothing wrong with the 250 or the 307. I've got a bit of experience with both. They won't win Class at Indy but they'll go comfortably under the index. The 350 needs help.

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Thanks for the reply Billy.I like the 250 and I know you are the expert on them. It seems to me that most run the 230, I figured the 1bbl would be even more strained with the larger cubes.

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Jeff! Nice to hear from you! I hope all is well!
Yes, you and Wesley did a lot of work and planning on what eventually got turned into the AHFS. We spoke about it a few times. But, NHRA didn't come up with it so they had to come up with their own plan.
Now as far as that 1 of 3 hand made spacer, hmmmmmmm.

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I can't think of someone that I would want the NHRA to look at. I just haven't noticed a racer with a pattern that would warrant the attention.

Do you have someone in mind?

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Now you're asking "loaded" questions! I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus.
EXCEPT for maybe Jeff with that 1 of 3 handmade spacer.

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As more of an observer than racer lately, I can think of a few guys that I would start the electronic checking on, first.
No names from me of course.That's up to the current NHRA racers to help police this kind of thing. It doesn't look like NHRA cares much about this.

Remember the Div.4 guy with the Malibu? He won a couple of points meets in a row, before the Emmons boys made a point of observing the delay box action on the line.
No one else seemed to notice a thing.

On a similar note, maybe someone could tell me whether or not "drive by wire" is still legal in Stock? If it is , would it be possible for the high powered low 9 second FX cars to leave the line at, say 40% throttle, and then go WFO at a timed point down track?
Obviously carbed cars couldn't do this :-)

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The phrase to use for adding "a new rule" in writing :)

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Bingo! I voted no every time I was asked by NHRA if I wanted the Pontiac Edelbrocks. So much for a level playing field.