Explain to me again, please
 

Why are (some not all) stockers still running flat tappet lifters when a motor with flat tappets ain't been made in 20 years and a set of tool steel lifters is $2100, 4-6 months back order . Guess my old head just don't see the reasoning or the difference between lifters and rockers. .

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

You only have to go back to 1/15/2016 on this site to see my post about this topic , one can clearly see that NHRA has implemented rule changes that changed everything in the valvetrain but the lifters , lifters the became the weak link , many racers not only have told ,and showed NHRA over ,and over again over many years ,not weeks or months for years now the destroyed engines ,pistons ,cams ,and lifters costing racers a lot of money needlessly , if they would have left the rules in place on the valve train in the first place we would not be waiting months for ordered lifters today !

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Most don't want solid roller cams in stock, just go back and read posts about it in the past. Opening up that box will get you one more step closer to making a stocker engine a super stock engine with a lift rule.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

They haven`t made an engine with a carburetor in about 35 years neither, do you suggest all older Stockers should be allowed EFI as well? Also been over 20 years since Chevy built a non LS small block, do you suggest LS engines for old cars? I personally believe that NHRA has allowed far too many superseded/approved/updated parts to the "STOCK" class, be nice if at least some semblance of "STOCK" components remains, before it turns into an anything goes bracket class. If you just have to have a roller cam, there are plenty of combinations that came with them from the factory, to chose from.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Then put the rules back ,and most will wine about that , in case you haven't noticed stock is already Super Stock ,the lifters will not change fact that stock has gotten way out of hand ,you stated Open up that box will get one more step closer to making a super Stock engine with a lift rule , well, you and others better look again if we are only the lift rule away if we change the lifters what about the other enhancements to stock over the years to get us all to this point ,You freely use the word most ,would they be the guy's that are cheating spending lot's of money to cheat are they the ones that you call most ! The point you ,and others are missing ,and it is still the same as it was back in 2016, and even before that the old cars are at a disadvantage you ,and others may just want to see them disappear while you drive a late model race car with roller lifters ,and have others that can't aford to keep dealing with the lifter problem !

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Ya piks yer kombo and ya pays yer dooz.

If you want a roller lifter combo with EFI then that's where you start.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Maybe we need a poll because MOST (from my outlook with all the new motors available) are already running solid rollers. They wouldn't need to vote. It looks to me like the only ones not running them are the cars from 60-early 80's. At the rate of $2100 a set and 6 months wait time for tool steel lifters they can lower the entry to 30 and 95% will be roller motors. If I have to qualify for a event spot against a non-vin, state of the art, factory made race car at least make it fair for the old flat tappet cars.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Soooooooo.......... you don't care about qualifying being "fair to the old flat tappet cars", you care about it being "fair" to you!
Here's a "fair" way to make this work without affecting anyone else, why don't you go and buy a "non-vin,state of the art, factory made race car"!

It's thinking like THIS that has S/SS in the screwed up state that it's in and why there needs to be some re-thinking and some back-tracking of some of the rules by NHRA and Tech.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Just like after market heads, if you car did not come with Roller lifters, if you want to run them, add an additional 5 hp to your
Combo.
NHRA should have implemented other HP adjustments for several other non OEM approved engine parts.
Would of leveled the playing field in Stock.


Steve Teeter Stk/SS 620

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

I would think a rule change would effect "all flattappet motors. Am I wrong to think that?

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

If for some reason NHRA elected to change this rule, I would say "either or". Some motors may not like rollers, depending on the design of there flat tappet existing cam etc.

Steve Teeter Stk/SS 620

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

And that's an awful lot of flat tappet motors. What kind of an effect do you think that change will have on the rest of the motor? What else will need to be changed to take advantage of the ability to use more aggressive cam profiles without breaking a lifter or wiping a cam? Not to mention the higher RPM capability.
What we need is a valve spring rule.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Bingo. More separation for Stock and Super Stock.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Quickly taking the “Stock” out of stock. Yes there have been major changes. If we want or need all that just move to Superstock?
Every change suggested creates a new set of issues and not just costs. Roller cams / lifters/springs double the cost.
. EFI probably triple the cost.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Why did hydraulic lifter combinations get solids and adjustable rockers? I'm fine with that improvement but it certainly wasn't new technology. My 64 MW was OEM solids.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

I must be really dumb running hydraulic lifters, stock rockers, and beehive valve springs on my non-VIN, state of art, factory race cars.......

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

When the Cam Duration and Valve Spring rules were changed many years ago that created a Domino effect that changed Stock Eliminator forever.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

What type of Hydraulic lifters?
Hell Daren. Your searching now for ways to slow it down to not get a hit.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

What advantage are you looking to get by letting all engines run solid roller lifters? How will this make things better? Tool steel lifters don't cost 2100.00 especially for a Chevrolet. Think people wont buy the best lightweight roller lifter money can buy? Have you ever seen a roller lifter explode? It's not pretty. How long should you run a set before its time to throw it in the garbage before it destroys your engine after failure? Leave the rules alone at this point.

BTW: We don't need another poll on here about rule changes.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Todd, I know you didn't mean to call me a liar. Got off the phone yesterday with Trend. Was quoted $2100. Call if you still think I'm lying and then you can apologize. . "Advantage" No advantage that I can see except able to get car to track and race instead of sitting waiting who knows how long on parts.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

2100?? Really? I bought a set for a SBC 4 months ago and they were 650.00. If that’s what they are I’m surprised. I wouldn’t think they went up that much. If so I apologize. What do roller lifters cost now? Have you gotten a price on those? I don’t mean cheap ones from summit either. I can understand not wanting to wait so long. Let’s Go Brandon

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

I didn't price rollers because wasn't really thinking about cheating, etc, etc. Salesman name at Trend was JJ (something). He told me first of year they had a price increase. He also told me they had 7000 lifters back ordered. Got off the phone with him, called Howard. They do supply a Tool Steel lifter but they have been back ordered since Sept. Hell, I just want to race and give my money to NHRA for the fun I have racing their events.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

It's all well and good if everyone in Stock run solid lifters, my problem with it is that my engine came with solids and was penalized with hp the day it rolled out of the showroom. Why is NHRA allowing solids and not penalizing those that are switching from hydraulic with to solids without a HP increase?

Casey Miles
248H Stock

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Are there that many failures using a standard solid lifter in a stocker motor? The NASCAR guys used standard solid lifters for decades. I know the ramps are more aggressive in Stock these days, but a tool steel lifter for a .312" lobe? Are people turning stocker engines to 10K?

If it makes you feel any better, buy a set of crower lifters and send them off to be cryod for $100. Or buy a large diameter lifter and have the block machined for them if that's allowed.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

@#$%&*!@%$#@ Bubski just had to throw the switch on the 85b after reading how this crazy train rode off the rails and took the tracks with it !!! So lets see !! Were gonna get us sum roller lifters right ? We don't want just any old lifter right?? Hell no !! We want the best and we want more than the next guy !! We now want to enlarge our cam tunnel if it wasn't already because when we send the block to get machined for the keyway lifters might as well do both at the same time !! Were not gonna stop there either !! Our new cams especially on those closed chamber oval port head engines are probably gonna cause us some piston to valve clearance issues !! So we would now like to change the piston rule to accommodate our new found issue !! And another thing !! No keyway lifter player would be caught dead without a shaft rocker upgrade !! Cheers Bubski !!

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Certainly waiting for parts, and prices increases is a real issue in our current "Covid" world, but the idea of changing the rules because some items are hard to get at the moment is ludicrous. Edelbrocks NHRA spec heads have been on back order for many engines for months, maybe we should allow ANY aftermarket head, simply because they are easier to find? Oh no, NHRA approved Quick Fuel and Edelbrock carbs are on backorder? No problem, Dominators for everybody ! Summit is out of stock on 9x30 slicks, but they have 14x32s on the rack, sure, why not! Where does it all end?

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Looks like Trend was one of the "Race Winning Brands" companies that was bought by a capital equity firm in November. That probably explains alot of the huge price increases.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

I have to believe Terry when he says $ 2100.00 for the lifters ,I know about a year ago I paid $ 1800 .00 . You are trying to spin the conversation from a lifter that in needed because of the enhancements to some kind of advantage , you can't tell me that you and others will remove the enhancements you have already took advantage of , from what I can see on here you never complained about any of them witch I am sure you have on your car ,it seems to me that you have a self serving interest on here telling others what to do ,and you use the We as if you know what's best for you but say we to help booster your opinion ,you are only one of the over fifteen hundred stock racers in the country ,so from what I read on here when you make these statements like Leave the rules alone ,and we don't need another poll it is as if you want to tell others what to do ,just like you have in the past !

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Can't run bigger dia lifters.
I've had 2 failures with lifters over about 8 years. Each time was well over $8000 to fix.
Been running Shubecks and it's getting hard to do anything else with my fingers crossed knowing it could happen, anytime. . Just allow rollers and if you don't wanna run them you can keep what ya have.
Not sure cryod will hold up. I know it didn't on one of my motors.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

I am running the full travel Johnson rollers that Chevrolet puts in the motors.


Absolutely, I read Nitro Joe's Stats. If you look at almost every class, there are plenty of combinations that can out qualify my cars. Why wouldn't I try to protect my investment the same way that the 396/375's, etc. get protected?

The NHRA has me nervous right now. The possibility of someone interpreting what I might have run and penalizing me for it, goes against the spirit of class racing.

If I get myself dinged in a heads-up run or trying to qualify number one, so be it.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

John,
are you saying I HAVE TOLD OTHERS WHAT TO DO IN THE PAST?

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Maybe If the AHFS was working as intended ………it wouldn’t be an issue. ?
Just the cost alone for lifters, bushings, pushrods and a cam or three is enough to discourage the move. I am one of those guys who doesn’t need the additional cost associated.
Keep asking for Superstock parts and that where we will end up.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Are there that many failures using a standard solid lifter in a stocker motor? The NASCAR guys used standard solid lifters for decades. I know the ramps are more aggressive in Stock these days, but a tool steel lifter for a .312" lobe? Are people turning stocker engines to 10K?

Well... one point is NASCAR was running a solid MUSHROOM tappit, as far as I know, those aren't allowed in stock...

Also NASCAR engines use larger diameter cams and last I heard was running an enclosed pressurized cam tunnel to make their stuff live...

That was years ago, are they still even using solids?

Any way... comparing apples to grapes.
Not much NASCAR does even compares to stock eliminator really.

JMHO

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Look at my history I’ve been fighting against rule changes for a pretty long time. Go back to when I raced my first stocker I was fighting against the rule changes. Has nothing to do with being self-serving. I don’t race a car with roller lifters I have never owned a car with roller lifters. I don’t like the rules getting further away from Stock they are right now. That is my position. If you want to race cars roller lifters build a combination with roller lifters. And your argument could just be turned around and put your name in front of it. How can you speak for 1500 people that you think want rule changes? The problem is one racer thinks we should have roller lifters but he’s not looking at the cost on top of it or where it takes the engine program . It’s just now “I can buy roller lifters now it’s cheaper and I can go racing faster” has nothing to do with any of the other issues that pop up from it.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

I'm a little older than you. That's the way it was done in the old days and you didn't have a word to say about it.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

And that's the right way to do it?

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

To each his own.
I had two purposes when I first posted. One was to get the items I need and go racing. The second is:
I'm trying to make people aware that parts are becoming an issue and the idea of sitting on your hands and watching as the corporate world rapes customers with over priced items and wants to call it a shortage is BS. It's greed, plain and simple. Allow changes to alleviate the monopoly and you stop the greed.

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

No ! Look back at my post from 2016 ,and you will see who I am referring to !
Those that choose to be the spokesman for other racers are the ones that I am speaking of !

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

You would also be giving the .904 shaft mounted system the much needed upper hand. ;)
I don’t know anyone who is having issues with lifters or flat tappet cams.

What else is there to explain?

Re: Explain to me again, please
 

Just my opinion, but I think you are hitting on the reason for changes such as these. Simplification of tech because they have lost most everyone that could accurately measure cam duration. Almost every change looking back over the last few years has been to make it easier on the tech officials if they ever do look at something. Same thing with the lifter issue. Anyone can eyeball a roller vs flat and it is easier to measure lift without replacing the lifter with a solid if it is already solid.

Could be all wet, but this is why I think we see changes like these. This is not to be read as I agree with the simplification for them to do their job.