Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Could someone explain the hp reduction listed yesterday on the two pontiac 455 combo's.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

The reduction that got my interest correct me if am misunderstanding the 1989 TPI 350 with the 128 head in a Camaro gets a 4 HP gift (270 for years now 266) but will be removed from the guide 1/1/2023. Someone must be running it but not for log.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Don't think very many will have to worry about that change. That was a rare engine, SD455.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

As far as I know, there is only one '73 Stocker & one '74 Stocker running that engine. Don't think those 2 will be in enuff heads-up runs in a season, to cause the other brands much trouble.

Considering the rarity of those heads, & current price, I don't think there will be a rush to use this engine.

But hey, what do I know. :o

Here's a 455 which I think could really use a big reduction. It's the '76 455. It has HUGE chambers, resulting in LOW compression, & from what I've read, poor flowing ports. But, from what I gather, somebody has to build one 1st, run it for a while, THEN ask for a reduction. I don't look for that to happen. I've never seen or heard of a '76 Pontiac running that engine. In fact, I've only seen ONE '76 Pontiac Stocker, of any kind.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...7&MAKE=Pontiac

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

That someone is me. I got hp removed and Nhra looked into the aluminum head in a Camaro. There was never this combo. It was an error by Nhra when put in in 1989. But still get to run it for this year.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Who is running this combo ?

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

It's no secret, since the car now has SD-455 on both sides of the shaker hood scoop. The '73 is a baby blue Firebird Formula, owned by Michael Brand. He & his wife both drive it.

I think they're still in div 2.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Interesting. Was going to ask how a car gets deleted.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Car isn't deleted. Combo with aluminum head gets deleted because gm never made it. Nhra made the mistake of putting it into their books.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

How does the Pontiac 455 get a reduction when the engine had an increase from factory rating?

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

I can name several Pontiac engines that were increased by NHRA, then later reduced by NHRA.

So, are you trying to say that once NHRA has increased the hp, they can't later come back & reduce it ? :confused:

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

If a racer causes the hp increase then no it can't be reduced. If Nhra increases hp before it is introduced into their classification guide then yes it can get a reduction. Hope this is correct from what I was told by Nhra.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

So if the combo is deleted because GM never made it how is it that the Yenco Nova withe 350 LT 1 IS in the Guide Book

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Good question......above my pay grade

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

That is the way the rule works now. If a certain combo gets HP then it is never eligible for a reduction. I was told that first hand when I tried to get a reduction on my combo. That Pontiac combo was not eligible by the rule as written.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

WOW ! 1st time I ever heard that. So, EXACTLY when did this rule take effect ? :confused:

Cause I'm positive that I know of factors that were increased, then reduced a couple of years later, & this was in very recent history.

That's all I'm gonna say about that.

And, who's to say NHRA couldn't just change that new rule ? How many rules have they changed ????????

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

If I remember correctly it was about 3 years ago the change was made. Lonnie Grim did say they could use discretion on the HP ratings.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

My Olds 307 in Cutlass did not get reduction because of being hit. In my wagon I received 3 hp off. G body to B body platforms.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Are you saying that Chevrolet didn't produce a COPO Nova with the LT1 350 in 1970? I'm pretty sure that one is well documented.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

NHRA used to provide the run data base with averages for each combo. It made it easy to understand their decisions. I wish they would post the date base and averages again.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Back in the early 80's we ran a 73 GTO in Stock with an NHRA factored Hp at 350 non ram air and 355 with ram air . There was some confusion on the factory HP rating which originally came out at 310 , but was later reduced to 290 . Pretty hard combo to run because the parts are so rare .

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Meant combination. I understand they actually built the body.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Yeah, I've never understood that. I've read that the 310hp rating engine was never actually released to the public. Pontiac decided to put a smaller cam in it, so that it would better meet the emission requirements, at the time. This cam change reduced the advertised hp to 290.

Sorta like SS&DI using an SD455 powered GTO as their cover car one month. Called it "Car of the Year". From everything I've read, the SD455 engine was released to the public ONLY in Firebirds.

https://www.hotcars.com/1974-pontiac...-sd-455-facts/

But, for some reason, NHRA allows the '73 SD455 engine to be used in Lemans, Grand Am, & Grand Prix models. John Clegg actually put one in a GP. And Russ mentioned running one in a GTO. But, as he said, the required factory parts are just too rare & expensive to race, for most Pontiac racers. They're highly sought after by collectors.

I suppose that for the non-Pontiac guys here I should mention a few of the most famous SD455 cars. The 1st is the Herslow & Morlock '73 T/A. It set records in both Stock & SS. Then Phil Szupka raced it for a while. John Clegg bought a new '73 SD455 Formula, & won the D/S class @ Indy with it that year. Later ran pretty strong in SS with it. J.B. Clegg now runs mid 9's with it, which makes it the quickest reg SS Pontiac.

Bob Michael built a '73 for SS. Later sold it to Don Kennedy. Craig Hendrickson of H-O Racing Specialties bought a new '74 T/A. Built a SS/KA out of it & set the record in '77. A few years ago, J.B. Clegg ran some 9.60's in it. So, at that time it was the quickest reg SS class Pontiac, ever. Could name others. But that's just a little Pontiac trivia for off season entertainment.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Umm, I don't think that he posts on here but Phil Szupka owned an original 73 GP/ 455SD!

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Yeah, we've all read about stuff that came off the assembly line that wasn't suppose to. And a variety of VIP's could usually special order something that was not available to the general public.

Here's a quote from an '07 Motor Trend article. Don't know how much research the writer did. And I didn't see every '73 GP that came off the line.

"... no SD-455-powered Grand Prixs were ever factory produced..."

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hppp...ac-grand-prix/

Pic #4 is of an H-O Racing Specialties newsletter with John Clegg's '73 GP on the cover. It says that he ran it @ Indy with SD455 power, although it don't say that it was an original SD455 equipped car. But it does show that NHRA allowed the SD455 to be used in a '73 GP, from the early years. So, maybe that's the info that Pontiac gave NHRA, at the time.

Mick Leiferman ran a '73 GTO. I've read that it had SD455 power. If that's true, don't know if it came with the SD455 or he swapped it in. For the non-Pontiac guys who don't know Mick Leiferman, he ran a '71 GTO that was a 5-year nat record holder & who was Stock RU @ Indy 3 years straight.

Here are pics of his '71 & pics of his '73, with 2 different paint jobs.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Billy,
I only talked to Phil a couple of times, but someone I knew worked with Phil. If my memory is still working correctly didn't Pontiac/GM back then have a law suite against Phil for the name on his race car?


Stan

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Had to be dealer installed

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Here was a lawsuit against Pontiac. This 32 Ford trademarked the phrase. The Judge. Its written on trunk lid. Rumors it cost $1m back then

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Never heard anything about that. Might be bogus info. Don't know.

I've always assumed the name was used because of the famous phrase from the TV show, " LAUGH-iN ", which was "Here Come the Judge", & several hit recordings with that name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMJOdLZaKE0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRS62nccwmw

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Not bogus at all. This is my home track at US 30 Dragstrip in Indiana. I will find the complete article and post it here.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Sorry this is the shortest version I found of case. It was a big deal back in the day around Chicagoland area.


U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois - 342 F. Supp. 203 (N.D. Ill. 1972)
May 3, 1972
342 F. Supp. 203 (1972)
Wilbur A. HEINEMANN, Jr., Plaintiff,
v.
GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION, Defendant.
No. 70 C 3023.
United States District Court, N. D. Illinois, E. D.

February 28, 1972.
On Motion for Amendment of Judgment May 3, 1972.
George Bullwinkel, Chicago, Ill., for plaintiff.

E. Manning Giles, Chicago, Ill., for defendant.


MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER
BAUER, District Judge.

This cause comes on plaintiff's and defendant's cross-motions for summary judgment pursuant to Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

Plaintiff, Wilbur A. Heinemann, Jr. (hereinafter referred to as "Heinemann"), is a resident of Indiana. Defendant, General Motors Corporation (hereinafter referred to as "GM"), is a Delaware corporation licensed to do business *204 in the State of Illinois. The amount in controversy exceeds $10,000, exclusive of interests and costs, and this Court is alleged to have jurisdiction to hear this case under diversity of citizenship and various federal statutes dealing with trade marks and unfair competition. The material facts in this case are not in dispute and, accordingly, the matter is appropriate for disposition by summary judgment.

Ever since he was quite young the Plaintiff has been interested in automobiles. Upon obtaining his first car at the age of 18, Heinemann began "modifying" it as soon as he could. Plaintiff's interest led him to purchase a succession of automobiles, many of which he "modified" or changed radically. In 1961, Heinemann extensively modified a 1951 Ford convertible which he named "SAINTNIC'S SLAY" and exhibited in several automobile shows. In 1964, the Plaintiff modified a 1958 Chevrolet which he named "BRAND X" and entered in drag races. Later in 1964, Plaintiff acquired an interest in a 1932 Model A Ford, the automobile involved in the instant suit. Upon acquisition of this interest, Heinemann began extensive modification of this automobile in his spare time.

In February of 1968, Plaintiff, with his brother and a friend, narrowed down the number of possible names for this heretofore unnamed automobile to four "The Machine", "The Judge", "The Boss" and "Shotgun". After a discussion, the name "The Judge", was selected. The origin of this name and Heinemann's reason for selecting it are clearly shown by this colloquy during the Plaintiff's deposition:


Q [Mr. Ballard] When did the possibility of naming it The Judge first occur to you, if you recall?

A [Heinemann] When the television show Laugh-In came on the air and became the great topic of conversation. It became so popular.[1]
On June 15, 1968, Plaintiff had the words "The Judge" painted on the side of his automobile by an advertising company.

On July 2, 1968, Plaintiff displayed his automobile in the showroom of a Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Chevrolet dealer; Plaintiff received no money for displaying the automobile but did receive free radio advertising and free entry to the July 4, 1968, week-end racing at Union Grove, Wisconsin. In the next two or three months, Plaintiff exhibited or raced his car at several events in the Milwaukee area. These included the "Summerfest" event in July, the "Youth on Wheels" exhibit in August, and the Great Lakes Dragway event in September. Heinemann was not paid for participating in any of these events although he did receive a mileage allowance of $27.50 in October for having brought his car to the "Youth on Wheels" exhibit.

During the spring of 1968, officials of GM's Pontiac Motor Division (hereinafter referred to as "Pontiac") decided to produce a new, high performance model of its Tempest GTO line. John Z. DeLorean, Vice President of GM and General Manager of Pontiac from July, 1965, to February, 1969, stated on affidavit that he had decided to name this new model "The Judge" on July 19, 1968, subject to clearance from Defendant's General Counsel's office that the name was available for Pontiac's use. Mr. DeLorean stated:


That the Rowan and Martin TV Show "Laugh In" is one of his favorite TV programs, which he has watched at every opportunity and that from the time he first heard the expression "Here Comes de Judge" on the TV Show "Laugh-In", in the fall of 1967, he thought that the name *205 "THE JUDGE" would be a good name for an automobile.

That he selected the name "THE JUDGE" because of the popularity of the expression "Here Comes de Judge" on the Rowan and Martin TV Show "Laugh In".

That he never heard of plaintiff, Wilbur A. Heinemann, or his rebuilt 1932 Ford called THE JUDGE until September 29, 1971, when Mr. Mosher of General Motors Legal Staff advised him of the [instant] suit.
On July 30, 1968, an officer of Pontiac asked George R. Mosher, a member of GM's General Counsel, to advise Pontiac on the availability of the words "Judge" and "TJ" for use with automobiles. After a thorough search disclosed no prior use of the words "Judge" or "TJ" for automobiles, GM's General Counsel sent a letter of opinion dated August 6, 1968, to Pontiac indicating that such names were available.

The first public showing of Pontiac's "The Judge" was on September 26, 1968; that same day Heinemann learned of Pontiac's new automobile when he went to a local Pontiac dealer to see the new 1969 line of automobiles. Prior to that date, Heinemann had no knowledge whatsoever that GM was going to produce an automobile with the same name as his own. Shortly after learning of Pontiac's new automobile, Plaintiff went to be a law firm and, on October 1, 1968, made application for registration of the trade mark "The Judge" with the State of Wisconsin. On October 3, 1968, the following trade mark was registered with the State of Wisconsin in Heinemann's name:

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

I guess Glenn doesn't have to worry too much about hurting his combo this year - zoommmm!

Ron B.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

So what was the end result of the lawsuit?

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

I always heard rumors of that lawsuit. I always thought it was a urban legend. Apparently it wasn't. I started going to 30 in 74. Story I remember was Pontiac won, but I heard all different amounts from $10K to $100K.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Speed shoo won. All the money was used for lawyers. I'm still looking for story it is a good read on the end result.
Started going to US30 in 67 with my parents. I actually raced my car from 1977 to closing.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

if you don't want to read up on it I'll save you the suspense HE LOST on all 5 counts--- but it's case number 70C 3023
Wilbur A Heinemann vs General Motors Corp
342 F. Supp .203 ND Ill. 1972

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Did this combo run at the Gainesville LODRS in March 2021? Or is that a misprint?

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Wow.
Combo doesn’t exist.. And it’s under factored
..but it’s ok your the only one with combo ...this is fair ?
But it’s only for 1 year. WTF ?
So you can go to a class race and win and that’s ok?
Glad I don’t run his class

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Not sure it's all that much of an advantage over what everyone running the TPI 350 in Camaros are doing.
The flat top iron head 1990 is now at 281 most everyone just changed year to 1989 installed dish pistons at 270.

Glenn decided to work with the aluminum head which was 270 now 266 so 4 hp gift but looks like it runs the same class as the iron 89.

Looked hard at this head 10 years ago compared to the iron head: It's a copy with smaller chamber plus point of compression but no port improvement. We thought at the time apples to apples (not considering it's much higher rating 10 years ago) not better than the iron head even with smaller chamber and point of compression without port improvement and thermal characteristics of aluminum the iron head would be better. That was the opinion at the time plus adding higher hp rating at that time: Now a 4hp advantage if it really matters.

Glenn is a smart guy has found something has done the work and gets to have fun for one season with it. Wish him luck.

Being fast showing it off is fun, if your goal is to win you need a second under car where ever you race to be a threat in heads ups, set up to be able to qualify where you want on the ladder then you got yourself a weapon.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

I don't disagree with anything you mentioned and certainly don't have a problem with what Glenn is doing, that is part of class racing finding combos with potential and working hard to go fast. My question is based on the rules of the AHFS, how did this combo qualify for a HP reduction. The rule says In addition, the engine family must NOT make two runs of 0.650 or quicker or any run 0.850 or quicker during the review period, for the review to continue. Car #2237made at least 5 runs of more than .8 under at Gainesville in March of 2021.

Re: Pontiac 455 hp reduction
 

Mineshaft?