This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

After reading everyone's post on the AHFS thread I started thinking about some things. I know that this is probably dangerous, but here goes. To examine the flaws of this program one needs only to look at the recent horsepower adjustments and the class race at Indy in K/SA. In the final of class Jimmy Harrison had to run Johnny Fisher. Jimmy has a very fast Chevy II with a 283 and a powerglide and Johnny has avery fast Mopar. If memory serves me right Jimmy had to go more than 1.15 under in the first round of class and Johnny didn't. In the final I think Jimmy went 1.2 something under and Johnny went 1.3 something under and was letting off. He almost got automatic horsepower. When you look at the horsepower adjustments in the latest batch you will notice that the 283 got horsepower and the 360 mopar didn't. So next year if they race each other again Jimmy falls farther behind.

There needs to be some common sense involved in this process. Someone should have looked at this and realized what was going on. There have been other instances of a similar nature in the past. Counting all runs at National events would help with this disparity but there also needs to be some human element factored into this process. The AHFS should not be about who can manipulate the system the best but about fairly assigning horsepower to the different combinations that need it. I also realize that no one ever think their combination needs horsepower.

What about this? A horsepower committee made up of some tech people along with some racers. My idea would be to have a number of super stock racers on the stock committee and stock racers on the super stock committee, this should keep people from just thinking about themselves.

Also please don't any of you take this personally. I only used the above example because it was recent enough for me to remember.

Greg

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Greg: You make some very valid points. A lot of it is just plain common sense, like you've stated. Hey, what class is your son's car going to run in? Not another darn E/SA?
P.S. You've got flames on you're car...you should be used to getting flamed.

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Greg that is a great example. When the AHFS were using body specific only the problem started. In a Mirada the 360 is 270Hp in an Aspen it is 289Hp common sense would tell you the horsepower potential should be 289Hp in both cars. The same thing happened to the 305 dish piston motor, in a Malibu there 230Hp in a Camaro there 249Hp. I've been looking through the guide on the NHRA web site and it looks like the L-48 Chevy is rated at 283Hp in all body styles 73-81 how does that make sense by looking at my examples above. Something is broken and needs to be fixed.

Jim

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

I believe that the horsepower rating for a given engine combination should be the same for all body styles, except in the case of a body style that has a functional fresh air system.

If you start taking body styles into account for aerodynamics, then you must also consider weight distribution, suspension setups, ad infinitum.

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Good point Greg. Ironically, if they would have raced during the eliminator both runs would count. This is why all runs should count.

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

The only thing that saves the invalid statistical method of the AHFS is the people manually making corrections. The AHFS needs to be compared to the average SSer not to an average of 1.15 under.

Ed, It is impossible for them to count all the runs because they dont correct to 29.92, 60 degF, dry air. If they correected all runs, then they could use it, just another statistical impropriety.

Lynn

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

example body specific...or wait..it's even the same body : Ls1 auto 364hp.. Ls1 stick 342hp,...just plain stupid system..racers that dont work or try to run fast dont get hp when others do!

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Everyone has great ideas on this subject and it has been discussed over and over again on this forum and the other forum. But there will never be a good and satisfactory method for the following reasons:

1) we don't all go to the same machine shop
2) we don't all run the same combination
3) we don't all run the same brand
4) we don't all have equal OEM 'replacement parts' (heads, blocks, etc.)
5) we don't all spend the same amount of money
6) we don't all put the same time and effort into our combo
7) we don't all race at the same races where the conditions could be mind shaft or really bad
8) we don't all run our race cars on kill all the time nor do we want to because of the wear and tear, so it only makes sense to back them down if no heads up are involved
9) we don't all race the same number of races each year, so the data is not consistant
10) there are not the same number of cars that make up each combo, some have 2 or 3 cars (ie. 340) while others have 50 or more (ie. 305's)
11) we don't all own our own machine shops

So with this in mind are we trying to

1) create a socialist class (everyone is the same regardless of time, money and effort)
2) penalize the racers that work hard, spend the time and money to be the best
3) throw out what this class was built on ..... PERFORMANCE

I know there are obvious combos that are under rated and there are some over rated and that is what NHRA is trying to even out with AFHS, but I don't know if there will ever be common ground to resolve all of the HP ratings.

Greg, another guy you could throw in there was Mitch Kight, he did a great job of protecting his HP factor. And we could talk about guys that are innovative and work hard, one that comes to mind is Don Holmes, that guy got tons of HP on his combo but still managed to be #1 qualifier at many Div 3 events over the years.

Jim, I know what you are saying about the same engine combo in different cars, not everyone thinks some cars are worth racing but some guys do to take advantage of the combo. The 90-91 Corvette is basically an LT1 with a little bit different intake and it is only at 283 HP ..

Just my 2 cents ...

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Jim so you think a malibu wgn will run the same ET as a corvette if they both have the same motor and are at the same weight? I think not, air flow might be a factor in this case. You have been spending way to much time talking with the rev. To everyone else HP gifts are a part of stock and superstock if you don't like it, then one stop racing in one of these to classes or live with it. I received four hp eariler this year and did I get on here and cry about how AHFS is not fair even though the class I run has a average was only 85 under and how Bob Gear is still faster then me, no I just when back to the engine shop put in long hours and got out the pocket book. As far johnny fisher I give him all the creidt in the world he spends good money to run as fast as he does and he plays his cards right. The way I feel is if there is a better combo then yours just bulid it that sloves everything. We all have the right to built what ever we want. This is when makes stock and superstock so special. There is no good way to enforce any HP system because different systems have different flaws.

Jim call my cell I wanted to talk to you about some things but lost you number. thanks Chuck D:rolleyes:

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Johnny glad to see your still alive, haen't seen you since Roxboro but I think its good they are talking about you. I have that Dana for your Challenger going in my Duster next week.


Herb Jr

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

damn automatic help for slugs can NEVER work... only reports on past activitiy has no way to interperet potential... and the numbers it gets are manipulated by US...

nhra is still beating the dead horse... get off of it

get us a HP committee made up of intelligent people (not many in nhra but a few) and add some racers and motor builders past and retired...

jack mccarthy

p.s. ive made 3 x -1.14 under passes in past 2 years ... DUH

and greggy is right 283's got screwed

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Hey Charley Bogus,

You really believe there should be 19hp more on a Camaro body than a Malibu. I didn't expect anyone to take it personally, I was just adding some examples to Gregs post. The Malibu guys with the dish piston cried to NHRA to take 5hp off their small cam combo because they claimed they couldn't run with Billy Lynns 79 Malibu. Guess what holds the M/SA record at 1.38 under the index? A poor old 230hp Malibu.My point is the AHFS should get rid of the body specific nonsense. You said it yourself, hard work and money is a great equalizer. When you get your bogus piston back from NHRA we can try that motor in my Vette. and compare the different body styles. Send me your cell number PM and we can talk.

Jim

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Jim I believe when the camaro started out it was at 235 hp, while the malibu wgn was at 230. But years of big swing dicks have given it a 14 hp increase. If those racers would have been smarter with there combo they would only be around 240 a 10 hp difference from the wgn. I can't help it some people protect there combos better then others. Jim my new motor is on hold right now we are having some parts issue's at the current time. But I feel the new motor will be around a tenth faster then the light one was. Really how much is 18 grams worth. But right is right and wrong is wrong.:rolleyes:

AHFS does work sometimes. Jack you think that the 283 got shafted, but truth is it need hp, what about all the cars the 283 beat before it ran into fisher. The only problem is the 360 did not get hp. Jack they had a committee at one time and people bitched about how it was unfair.

Jim 517-605-8309 call any time

Chuck D, Charleybob, Charley bogus and what ever else you can come up with.
3548 STK
Done till mach 1:D

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

I haven't figured out how the engine knows its in a Corvette or a Malibu wagon.If its its built with the same parts it will make the same horsepower, not counting a fresh air system of course. How it can use the power down track will be different but not on the dyno.

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

To muddy up the whole body factoring thing further, the 305 in an 81 Camaro was last hit because of an 84 Firebird. They may both be F-bodies but the suspension is different. Toss the whole body factoring nonsense, at 110 MPH aerodynamics don't mean 19 HP. I agree with Mr. Beard, an engine doesn't know what chassis it is in with the exception of fresh air systems.

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

My point is it takes less hp to move a corvette or camaro from start to finish then a wgn. Even if both are at the same weight with the same motor and trans combos you still have the aerodynamic factor. If these to cars were to be in the same class at the same weight the wgn would lose every time. A motor that makes 400hp in a corvette won't make 400hp in a wgn because the motor works harder in the wgn because of poor air flow over the body in turn the wgn may only make around 390 hp to the ground vs the 400hp in a corvette. But the motor still makes 400hp when you put it back on the dyno. Pat and Harry what you two are saying is a engine makes the same hp no matter what car its in?

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

I'd say you're right. That being said: some combinations are better than others. Yes, a Corvette is more desirable than a wagon. BUT, you race the wagon because it's frickin' cool. While most guys want to go fast, there is still a great deal of vehicle selection that goes on because of the 'cool' factor. Otherwise, everyone would run one of a handful of the 'magic' combinations.

You can also take two identically prepared cars - same engine, body, and everything, and they may perform differently on the track.

I have no clue how good the combinations are compared universally with everything else, but some of the coolest Stockers on the planet are Ray Golanka's Q/SA Caddy and Tom Gould's stick Corvair!

NHRA factors body styles, but some people got mad when I suggested that fresh air systems were worth horsepower. I think a hoodscoop makes more of a difference than aerodynamics!

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Thats the difference between a good combo and a bad one. The Corvette being the good one in this case. Is nhra measureing rear wheel wheel hp or should I say guesstimating.

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

Harry in this case the wgn and corvette are about equal. wgn 230hp corvette 235hp. Pat I don't see a big performance difference in a camaro and firebird suspensions. Where does one car have an advantage over the other?
Also its more of educated guess, if you can get combos around where they should be to start with then AHFS should take care of them. The problem is when cars are 15 to 25 hp light to start with the system does not work because it takes so long.

Re: This is what's wrong with the AHFS.
 

The difference is that an 81 Camaro is a gen 2 body style, the suspension is the same as a gen 1 camaro with leaf springs. 84 was a gen 3, with strut tower style suspension front and coil spring rear.