And the whiner award goes to ......
The people that just can't leave well enough alone. With the posting of the recent NHRA BS rule changes (and I see IHRA followed suit) the use of 2-steps and blinders is the best news that the Pro boys in stock and super stock could ever want (look who wrote the original post). You can call it a crutch or anything else you want but as a part time racer I used what I could to 'level the playing field' from a driver's point of view. Let's face it the AHFS (adjusting horsepower for slugs) is nothing more than trying to level the playing field. So what's the difference in trying to level the playing field when it comes to driving? Hey Jeff Lee and others that think blinders are a safety issue, no offense, but I think you are over exagerating it. The only time someone should be using a blinder is at the starting line, if they are driving in the pits or thru the staging lanes with it in place then maybe they shouldn't be racing at all.
In all other sports people are using 'aids' to help them be more competitive. Gloves in baseball and football, wrist bands in bowling, and the list goes on and on. Are this crutches? No different in racing, everyone wants to win or be competitive. CLASS or HP - now you have to make a decision on whether or not class is worth the possiblity of getting HP. We will now see who is locking them up on the big end during class eliminations ... that seems safe to me ... right To NHRA thanks for screwing up a chance for others to win with these stupid rules and congratulations to the whiners that for some reason get their way ... |
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My side of your complaints would be this:
1) NHRA could have taken the opposite approach and allowed ALL delay boxes.If you think you are at a disadvantage now,you would be at an even greater disadvantage then.Great racers and delay boxes equal packages of .01 or less most of the time. 2) Hitting the brakes to avoid AHFS? I look for a new rule called the Pinks ALL Out rule that says that if you really need to hit the brakes to win a heads up race,then you lose.This should help level out the competition,although some will take it as a penalty for "working" on your car.Some cars in G/SA might belong in D/SA.If you really would hit the brakes in the class final to avoid the AHFS,then why not redlight on purpose in the first round and save the gas and parts? |
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but dont most of ther pro boys use buttons and blinders?
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Ask Santa for one. Best investment you'll ever make.
http://www.biondoracing.com/images/s.../FR-POCKET.jpg http://www.biondoracing.com/Practice...html#FR-POCKET Merry Christmas! |
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Speedracer,
What the hell does a 2-step and a blinder have to do with a delay box? You are missing the point .. Obviously your aren't a stock or super stock racer. Why would I put 30+ years in a car to be the fastest only to get hit with HP because I spent the money, time and effort because the car in the other lane hasn't done the same? Read my other posts, it will never be even. Tell me, how do you give HP to a car that is 1.15 under and the same exact combo only runs .85 under but yet the average dictates HP. Now that guy is farther behind. Does that mean he doesn't know how to go fast, doesn't care or doesn't have the money or time? Why is it that you whiners think that because a guy is fast that he is either cheating or he needs HP? Why isn't every team in the NFL, NBA or MLB or for that matter college all have equal records? Does that mean that they need to level those playing fields? Hello Speedracer, redlighting gives you NO chance to win ... and I used to respect you and your opinion .. Mike ---- already have one .. |
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Never mind,but I'm outta here.
This just proves to me that if the winner of Stock Eliminator were to receive a $500,000 cash prize,there would still be some that were pissed because it wasn't $1,000.000. Blocking the tree was a tremendous disadvantage to a 13.00 and up car.I think its better with a level playing field this way,but I already have said too much about this. If your car passes tech and gets horsepower,it shows the potential is there and the other guy (with the same combination) needs to spend the money.We are not factoring by the money spent,but by the potential of the combination by following the rules. Later.................................... |
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I nominate Bruce Nol.................. oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were actually nominating people
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Chuck, just to be clear and to provide the entire statement I made and it's not taken out of context, here's EXACTLY what I posted on the subject:
NHRA never had a rule that blinders were OK. Racers just adopted it. Now NHRA is just clarifying that they are not allowed. And when racers took it to the extreme and people are getting run over in the staging lanes, I'm all for it. Look, racing involves dealing with distractions of all sorts. Those that can deal with them prevail more than those that can't. That's just a part of the sport. Not the least of my concerns are safety and as it has been proven, somebody is going to get hurt. Secondly, my thoughts are there is some degree of ineptness if you need to shield yourself in a cocoon in order not to be distracted in a race. Sorry to offend some, but that's just my .02 on the matter. |
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Then I guess the pro stock drivers are really inept....take a look at their shields and custom helmets with minimal race view. And also giant hood scoops that grossly block their vision from seeing the tree while staging to looking down track while on the run. Maybe Koretzky never saw Bruce Allen coming......should NHRA do away with modified visors and hood scoops in pro stock also?????????
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And they finally made the P/S drivers shift themselves. Funny, it didn't seem to hurt performance...
Fast cars have an advantage in that they chase a slow car down. Slow cars have an advantage in that they get a clean tree and get to leave first. Some build a fast class car because they favor chasing. Some build a slow class car because they want the fast cars to red light in anticipation. Blinders narrow that slow car advantage. Maybe MLB players should have little slits in their batting helmet that only shows the path from the pitcher to the batter? Would hate to imagine they can't hit the ball if distracted! |
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What stops a racer from taking a pair of dark sunglasses (or mirrored) and doing a little "duct tape magic" on the inside where the NHRA gods can't see? If you only put them on just before staging, only did one lens and closed your other eye once you saw the tree start, it would be safe and "big brother" would never be the wiser. ;) Back before the LED's I used sunglasses to slow my R/T, and for the night races, they came off briskly before the 1-2 shift, one fluid motion from reacting to the tree to grabbing the frames, then off to the shifter......food for thought.
EDIT: I just read Pat's thread on patented glasses, rats, someone had the idea before me!! |
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This once again prooves another point that no matter what NHRA does there are still people complaining...cant make everyone happy but preach on chuck i agree 100%
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Jeff asked me how to seperate your comments from the whiners you complain about. Just wondering where the line is drawn? |
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Chuck,
The speedracer no namer isn't a racer. He's a fake. Ignore him. Chad, Still smarting from our last little exchange? You offer bitchy little back stabing darts while I'm at least trying to add to the debate of important issues. Too bad you don't have the nads to contribute. |
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>> Maybe MLB players should have little slits in their batting helmet
Why aren't corked bats and steroids permitted in the MLB? :rolleyes: |
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i wanna make sure i got htis strait
leveling the hp playing field is bad but leveling the rt playing field is good? dosent the same logic apply? |
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Don't anyone take this personally, but if you can run 1.3 something under your index at Indy on Labor Day weekend you need horsepower. My car is a 70 or 71 Camaro Z28 wsith the horsepower ratings at 325 and 315. There are no better legal parts you can buy than are in my motors. I have one of the top engine builders in the country. I think I have a pretty fast car for my combination. My best et ever is 10.79 in E/SA. This was in Memphis in 2006 with below sea level air. I'm telling you all this because my engine builder told me that one of his engines from a combination that is rated at 285 made within 5 hp of my 71 motor which is rated at 315. Both had similar parts,. Same engine builder did both sets of heads, although they were differnt makes.
I have tried numerous camshafts over the years numerous converters, 5 or 6 diffferent carburetors,several different ring packages, dyno time, headers and lots of other things trying to improve the performance of my car so don't tell me that all it takes is money and work because I have spent the money and done the work. I realize that I picked this combination and I like running it, but let's face it the AHFS is designed to level the playing field and provide each and everyone of us that race an opportunity to compete on an equal footing. Yes some people are not going to do the work or spend the money it takes to get the maximum performance out of their cars but those of us that do should expect the horsepower ratings to be fair. The combination I mentioned above that is at 289 now has to weigh 3060 for E/SA my car with the 71 motor has to weigh 3320. I have to give him 260 lbs for motors that make roughly the same horsepower. I'm not complaining, class has gotten less and less important to me over the years and going rounds in eliminations more important, however with the fuel injection cars coming into our class next year it's more important than ever for the AHFS to work properly. There are going to be a lot of heads up runs in 2008. If this makes me a whiner so be it. Greg |
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A new and innovative idea would be to eliminate the "Christmas Tree' in the middle of the starting line configuration and place an individual "tree" on the outside of each lane. This would eliminate leaving off the other lane's light, and completely eliminate "hoodscoop obstructions" for Pro Stocks and others.These lights could be "hooded" to allow viewing only by the lane competitor, which would enhance safety implicitly by requiring the driver to concentrate solely on "his" lights. This would also render any current "tricks", i.e. blinders, tape, playing cards, etc. obsolete, and add intrigue and excitement to the game, while the traditional "greats" devize new "one-upsmanship" edges to win consistently(and they will).
BTW; I know of one Super Street competitor that has such a large hoodscoop, that he generally selects the right lane so he can see the tree. If by chance, he has to run the left lane, he uses a mirror mounted on his right fender to leave...this is not safe. |
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Roger,
The fans would miss the regular tree, but your idea could be used in conjunction with the regular tree. |
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Bilnders, I don't care either way. I don't use one but don't care if anyone else does. AHFS. Needs some tweaking, need to tech cars before they get a kit for the combo (1.30, 1.40 under instant hits) Also should have a committee of racers and tech officials from each division making the decisions. Two Steps. I don't see the problem with them, Mine's always been on the brake pedal. What else you got? Speaking of Nads, you should come race a D4 race sometime............. |
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Chad,
I don't have anything for you, but your memory can't be as bad as you say. I am glad to see that you made a positive contribution to the thread. |
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Merry Christmas to you too Mr. Clutchman. Hope you have a nice holidays.
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Of course, they could also just wear a pair of these at night too: http://www.carnivalsource.com/images/products/7366.jpg |
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Greg, seems like there are a lot of differences in these engines for only 5 acual horse power difference.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken about some of these spec's but I believe the Chevy has at least these advantages. 10 more cubic inches. Holley carburator to a Thermoquad. Aluminun intake to a cast iron intake. Chevy head usually consider better than the Mopar. 2.02 intake valve to 1.88 intake valve. 1 more ratio of compression. 200 grams lighter piston and rods. More lift on the cam. I know the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fense but it seems to me there should be more than 5 hp difference between these combinations. Thanks Jerry Davis |
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Greg |
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Clutch man, how many races does one have to have won before any comments that they make for it to be worthy or credible? I am concerned since I may not be able to post as having not enough wins.
Ron Ortiz U/SA Oh am I worthy |
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Ron,
The guy is just another no name loser. Not worth the time. |
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anyone worried that there are now two less excuses when a better racer beats you ????
just wondering how the whiners view it ?? jack |
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Jerry you would think so based on the specs you quoted the big difference however is the flow of the heads. Rod ratio doesn't hurt either and the cams are basically the same. Holley carb is 780, Thermoquad is either 750 or 800. You guys have done a good job getting your cars to really fly and I respect you for that. I was responding to Chuck's initial post about people whinning and not working hard enough or spending enough money.
Greg |
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Ed I do want AHFS to work, that's why I supported counting all runs at National events. By the way I know which Mopar you're talking about and that car is extremely fast, probably the fastest E/SA car in the country.
Greg |
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Hello Greg,
How are you doing? Hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas. Greg you know as well as I do this post was not directed to the 'hard' working people of stock and super stock. Those people that are waiting for the HP gods to take care of them know who they are. Let me give you some background about my combo. When I started some 35 years ago I got pounded regularly by the 455 Buicks. Then along came the 351 Mustangs which thumped me for years. Then I had to deal with the LT1's, then the LS1's and the 340 low compression motors as well as the 360's. Most of the 350 Chebbies were just as good. As the rules changed over the years some things helped some didn't. After 15 years or so I changed engine shops and things began to come together. I tried different convertors, tried different cams, tried different transmissions (my tranny was probably 3 times what yours cost) and everything else you can think of. I bought headers that I never thought would cost that much. I bought some stuff that I thought I must be out of my mind (which I probably am). But if you don't try new stuff how will you know. Nobody but tells us what combo to build, we as racers decide that. I cannot afford to go out and build a new car (or even a different motor combination) when HP changes. Some racers can. You look at my 340 combo compared to all of the 350 combos out there. Some guys can change heads, cam or intake and change class, I don't have that luxury. But I am the one that chose this combo. Even today it is not that popular, there may be 4 to 5 of us that run this 340 combo. And don't forget about all the paper cars out there. In my 35+ year career I have a whopping 8 class trophies. Never have won class at Indy and I have been there 30 times. Never won a National event and have only won a couple divisionals. I have never run 1.25 + under in any conditions. Now I am not complaining because it was my own fault for losing many class wins, so to help with my driving I went to a 2-step and blocking. I still have not won anything but I have been more consistant. Now that has been taken away. So part of my original comment was that AHFS was designed to level the playing field when it comes to HP. I used a 2-step and blinder to help level the playing field in driving. I have never been a very good footbrake racer, many racers are. I see no safety issues using a blinder, if there has been instances it has been because of carelessness. My blinder was not in place till I was at the starting line. I raced for some 25 years with only minor rule changes, now it seems like there are more rule changes than races. |
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Typical Chevrolet 350 such as 295hp. 1967 production cam spec .390 .410 NHRA spec .390 .410
Typical mopar 340 production cam spec .429 .444 NHRA spec .462 .473 Not hating just trying to keep it REAL!!!! What happened there ? is it just a 30 year old typo?????? |
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Here are the 71 Z28 cam specs 330 350 .002 Flat w/n 2023/1605 458/484 Outer w Damp .016 887,316,993,916,881,882 |
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Clutch man, thanks for the go ahead, I was a little worried. By the way, have I met you before at the races, I believe I know you from your previous posts and your location.
Ron Ortiz U/SA jerky head huh. |
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My post was not about any particular combo just the DIFFERENCE between the actual factory cam lift and the NHRA (Paper car) spec of the Mopar. Doesn't the 340 run against the 290 hp 350 Chevrolet in E,F,G and H stock?
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I am really impressed with the 1968 340 combo running as fast as it does with the factory 1.815 Piston Compression Height.That is truly outstanding! It really shows what HARD work can do!
The Chevrolet has a big advantage with a 1.535 compression height. |
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Merry Christmas Chuck. At least you won't have to run against Jerry Bennett any more.
Greg |
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Chuck Beach, how much have you picked up your combo over the many years you've worked with it? What do you feel was the biggest technological boost through the years? Its got to be tough when you have a combo with out a lot of options. You have to love it.
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