? of the day
 

Is an MSD grid a data logger?

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Interesting....................................... .............

Correct me if I have gotten some wrong information but can you LEGALLY have a "data logger" connected to your "ignition system"?

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He explicitly said legal from Stock to TAFC. I was surprised to hear that. Data recorders permitted according to Rulebook (Section11A, pg12, Support Group 9)

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? Two..What are the various components shown on the tabletop?

? Three...Can the Grid correct real time information to a pre-programmed run? (asking for a friend)

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Ummmm,
General Regulations; 9:2 Data Recorders
Sentence #1; Data recorders may be used to record functions of a vehicle
so long as they do not activate any function on the vehicle.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't spark timing and timing retard "functions of the vehicle?

Sentence #4; Fifth-wheel sensing devices prohibited on all vehicles.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't a driveshaft sensor be considered a "fifth-wheel sensing device"? And even if it's not, when did they become legal?

I think that the Tech Dept. should re-read General Regulations section 9:1 and 9:2 before it makes any determinations regarding what it allows some of it's sponsors to sell to the Racers!

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https://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-s...grid-features/

It says:

• Program a specific timing action at any point or range during a run to control conditions you have identified by feel or via data logging.

• Program time or gear based rev limits throughout the run to prevent an overrev from tire spin or even a missed shift.

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? whatever..
Are any of the 9 and 10 second factory / experimental using drive by wire throttle?

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Billy I have a grid and the data logger does not control any of the functions. You have to program the functions into the grid. Not because I use one but that is how would interpret it. BP

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This cats out of the bag already. MSD will add features/upgrades to their products. Why would NHRA stop them? A Rulebook gray area...

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You can also hook a racepack to the grid, now you have two data recorders and ………

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WELLLLLLLLL, they don't call it the "Cheater Grid" for nothin'.. NOW, proving it seems to be another issue not being addressed by the upper echelon.. YES, I just said that..

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Ban this crap.

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One of the big issues to be addressed is using a racepak in conjuction with a grid for the purpose of sensors on your driveshaft. I understand you want to use one to find out where you need to be with your converter or manual transmission gearing at a testing session. But nhra can easily look under stock and super stockers and if they see wires hanging off a rear end at the pinion, it should be an immediate DQ. Btw, all Holley EFI systems have this option without using a racepak, not sure about fast or big stuff. With these EFI combos, the options for engine management and timing controls are endless going down the track consistently.

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Billy, Charlie and Frank have you guys ever used a grid or a Race Pac. I would much prefer one of the old digital boxes but they don't make them anymore. I have both a carb car and a ETI car. The EFI car has it all over the carb car with the grid. If you know a way that you can use the grid to cheat lets here it. Now I wish I could tune the carb car as it went down the track. Anything that you can do with the grid you can
petty much do with the EFI cars. There maybe a few exceptions but I not aware of any. BP

I'm not an expert at using the grid and this year of racing is over for me. But next year come on over if your at a race I'm racing at. I'll plug the grid into my computer and show you what it can and can't do. I'd worry more about delay boxes or boxes with in another box.

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OK Barry, this is as good a place to start as any. What should be done about it? Should NHRA be arbitrarily "confiscating" (or replacing) ignition boxes, data loggers and tachometers? I seem to remember several years ago NHRA handing a prominent Sportsmen Racer an ignition box and telling him to give them his! Is this the answer?

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At INDY, NHRA pulled SG and SC cars into the barn to look at wiring and ignition stuff. Just like our delay boxes, I believe the grid can only make adjustments to timing based on preprogrammed info not on the fly. However, when I go to Big $$$ bracket races, we’re required to disconnect our driveshaft sensors during eliminations.
Dan
SC 44

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Billy, As I see it the main problem in fixing all this has to do with money. As far as I know NHRA Tec department does not have a qualified expert in the field of electronics. If they don't they need one. Not only for our cars but for the Pro's. It might be hard to hire one because anyone with that kind of knowledge is probably already working and making decent money. I'd be looking at contracting a company such as MSD and others to do electronic tec inspections. MSD is already at the National's. That's why I said them but I'm sure there are others they could contract with. Just do one Stocker and Super/Stocker at a National race. No other tear down for those two chosen just electron inspection. A lot of time we run first and second round in the morning and the rest of the day off. Have the two even take their boxes out and MSD bring it back to their trailer for an inspection. Just the threat of this could happen to you should go a long way with helping any problem we might have. Also would be nice if there was someone at a race that we could also ask questions we have about what is acceptable.

Not sure if many remember but years ago and I'm talking 20 plus years ago they hired such a person. Not sure of his credentials but they had one. At E-Town National's I was one of the chosen ones that ended up in tear down. They did the normal top end stuff but also the electronic person did an inspection of my car. The only thing that came out of his inspection of the car was I couldn't use the line lock button light to let me know the line lock was in gaged. I laughed and said really most of the cars had one in them. I asked Bob Lang who was the head of D-1 at that time and he said that the tec guy thought there could be a way you could use the light for something else. Not sure how long he lasted in that job or if he still works for them now. But right now as you know not much if anything is being looked at when it comes to electrics.
I don't know about you but I'm old school and don't have anywhere near the knowledge on this subject that I'm sure others that are racing have. I have no doubt It wouldn't be that tough for some to use any box and make changes that would enhance their car in not a way we are suppose to. BP

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Wouldn't that be like contracting with Rich Matty to look for Matty Boxes?

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I wonder if you could link an ABS controller to real time data and get an effective scrub when you needed it. Maybe the wheel sensors could count....never mind.

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Should have my new stocker together in a few months after it's back from paint. I researched ignition systems to used and asked others for advice. I got back "get a grid" from more than one so I did some checking. From my experience running .90 classes and knowing the value of consistency there is no way I'm going to use one. There are enough places to "tune" on a car and screw up the next run than to go into a laptop a make a myriad of changes with a key stroke. I'm already old and computer challenged, I would mess up the car in no time! LOL

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Let's see if we can reign this thread in, before it spins out of control, okay?

Let's say we have, oh I don't know, a factory experimental Stocker that runs 9.30's
Assuming he or she can leave the line at zero timing or 30% throttle with NO wheelspin,
can a pre-programmed run be installed into the EFI operating system , whether it be a Grid or an original computer, that will duplicate an earlier run?

Non scientific poll here:

YES____ NO_____ I DON'T KNOW _____ I DON'T CARE_____

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Mike it's really pretty simple to use. Once you set a few things up in it your not going into it every run. BP

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you have to use the ARC module for the grid to have any advantage. other than that theres nothing in there that i would consider cheating.

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Barry,
NHRA does have two highly experienced and knowledgeable electronic/software engineers in the technical department as managers: Glen Gray and Tim White

I believe they need to spend as much time with the Sportsman classes as they do with the Pro classes.

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Had to look that one up..For the rest of the uninformed like me,...here it is.

https://www.holley.com/products/igni...ies/parts/7761

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Temptation to make changes LOL
Wouldn’t timing based on engine rpm and gear or a launch rpm limiter help with wheel spin. Sounds like it could be used for a form of traction control?
I DON’T KNOW _ X

Features:
USB connection for ease of programming
Timing based on engine rpm and gear value
Advanced individual cylinder timing based on gear or time
Five retard stages for nitrous
Four steps of rpm limits for burnout, spool, launch and overrev
Output switch set on rpm, pressure or time
Shift light settings for each gear
Ignition data acquisition accepts multiple runs
Crank Trigger system highly recommended

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Mike you can already add rpm timing controls and rpm activated switches to almost any MSD box out there. You don't still use points? But even back in those days we played with timing with dual points. This is not something new. If your not you are missing out on some ET.

I'm trying to figure out how to control fuel with a Holley like you can with a EFI car as you make a run. And I believe I have a way to do it. Have not tried it yet. BP

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If you look in the “approved products” list, the part number for that add on box is specifically prohibited. So unless people are using them and just hiding them somewhere in the car, there’s nothing the Grid can do alone in a carbureted car if you’re trying to achieve what that box can do. EFI on the other hand, you don’t need a grid for “traction control” depending on who’s ecu you are running.

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It's a very easy fix Ban them in Stock !!!!
Let's all run a 6AL like me !!!!

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I’m even more antiquated than that in the Nova. I run a 6T, with a “soft touch rev control” plugged in to that, then a 2 step plugged in to that.

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Bob Welcome to the 2020's. How do you take care of the EFI's. Their boxes can do most of everything a grid can do but even more. Ban the 6al box because I never used one!!!! Why don't we all go back to points in our distributors. Most of the people that seem to be against the grid boxes are the ones that don't use them. Or even understand how they work. Don't hate educate. BP

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Doug isn't a two step an electronic controlled devise. Can't you control starting line leave with them? That's another way to control traction isn't it? Lets ban them too. I don't use one. Just kidding!! BP

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And the carb stick guys are shaking their heads!

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I understand what you're saying completely. The issue they are trying to get at is when people "not saying you specifically" use their latest and greatest ignition boxes/ecu/data logger, or a combination of all three, to make changes to how fast the car is going down the track without any input from the driver. In the grand scheme of things, they are relatively "not all that expensive," but there is a decent makeup of racers that either can't afford them, or don't know how to use them. It's the same argument like aftermarket engine parts in stock. Those that have a combo that don't have the aftermarket support/can't afford the aftermarket parts will be against allowing them. But those that can afford it and have combos that benefit greatly from them will be impossible to convince why they shouldn't be allowed to have them. As with everything in life, you can't make everyone happy no matter what you do.

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whatever you do in the grid will only slow you down. it does have a launch retard. but like i said. it will only slow you down. it cant make your car go faster. i have the grid and only use it to compare my rpms on the throttle stop. and i have an AFR gauge to see my fuel trim

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WOW!!!!!!!!!!
Spoken like a true liberal!

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Billy I make a conservative look left of center. BP

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When my brother and I were younger and foolish we started out with a 1969 427/425 HP Chevelle. That was in 1975. Only took us two years to run the index. Man it was a lot of work back then with the factory 4 speeds. Now and I laugh saying this all you stick guys have 4 speed automatics. I know you use a clutch that's what they all say. LOL BP

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Barry, my stick cars had a two-step only and me personally, I used the 3rd pedal. I respect your experience and wish things were simpler but ?