Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Pozzi brought up a good point in the AHFS thread that I believe needs expanded on. What are the root causes of why class racing is the way it is now verses 12+ years ago. Just brainstorming so don't shoot the messenger. Just reporting the facts as I see them and are echoed by many of those who were there. Also, is there any of these we can counter or ask NHRA to remove?

Would also like to say that having spoken to Lonnie and Ned, they both want to bring it back to racing as we know it but their hands are tied because 1) they aren't stk/ss guys - never claimed to be - and try to react to what he racers want or were told they want. They also know they need a stk/ss experienced person/people who know what's really happening and can read between the lines. It be no different if they threw me in super comp. Would take time to figure it out and then multiply that by all the classes and their agendas who believe they are most important. Tough job for anyone.

No particular order and a * indicates that there was probably a class racer pushing his agenda in the background. Feel free to add.

1. Bruce retired
2. No one with stk/ss experience who is willing to make the sacrifice so we can play. Try finding someone.
3. *Aftermarket heads, cranks, valves, etc. Some was needed, many not. Needed someone in NHRA to call BS.
4. NHRA people not being consistent in application of the rules. Some divisions allow, some don't.
5.No weight stickers so we can police our own.
6. *The alphabet cars - reminds me of IHRA at the close. What class is he or she in? Use to be class was identified by specific size decal on windows, before it went thru tech.
7. Changing class after tech card was turned in. I saw a racer jump on his scooter in the lanes and had his class changed because of the fast guy in it.
8. Bracket racers coming into class racing and wanting to change the rules to fit their needs. Just saying. We love you, want you and want you to try not to change what has worked for years.
9. *SRAC - members with their own agendas rather than trying to be impartial and what is good for the sport.
10.*Removing shipping weights and only allowing GT car to move 250 pounds from it. More hiding places, less heads up.
11. *Allowing Traditional SS vehicles to run GT when equipped with engine that came in the car.
12. *Bob Dennis - Get well Bob - No slam on Bob. Good guy that we named process after. Claiming a different combo because of a .001 difference in head gasket. Use to be you would claim the best package from what yr/model you had. Use to be basically 4 - 318 combos in SS - now over10.
13. Limited tech and tear down - lots of reasons for this
14. *AHFS - not going down this road
15. NHRA's inability to recognize a "soft" combo and gently, gently, gently bring it back into line.
16. *Stock with SS heads and cranks
17. SS - Separating FWD to RWD GT hp factors/ratings.

I'm sure there are more. Tired of typing. Feel free to add. And lastly, the disclaimer - Thread is not personal to any racer, friend, official, etc. I'm more interested in seeing what we can suggest to be changed.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Mike,

Lots of good points.

I think that one of the biggest issues we face is that there isn't a lot of incentive to go fast (I am still after one of your hats). The points chase would be better if class wins, qualifying, and records had bonus points.

I agree that there are now way to many ways to dodge a heads-up run

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Has Lonnie Grimm made a positive difference?

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

It's so complicated;
New age Electronics
Aftermarket Parts
AHFS mess
Bastardized Rule Book
Not enough Tech people to enforce it
SRAC effectiveness

Who has the answers?

Farmer, Cloy, Greg X and others are gone and can't be replaced.

What a ****ing **** show.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Who was the National Tech Director 1985 to 1995?

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I say do away with half pound classes. Make them a whole pound to move classes. Then you do away with half the classes. No where to run from a heads up. Run sticks and autos together also.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Especially in GT. Don't know if you actually do in SS. Or another idea is to put all the Fuel Injection cars together.

I seen where Billy or Mark wrote - go to Indy with all you got, regardless if hit Monday or not. The motivation back then was to take the record off the other guy because he went .01 faster than you did. Be nice to run as fast as you can all the time. I had a blast at Columbus - because you could go as fast as you wanted, Indy and at Galot because it was 1/8 mile. If we had a chance i'd still take a shot, hp or not.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

You forgot to put a * In front of your suggestion of putting all the efi cars together to have it marked for potential personal agenda…. How would that help anything except make more alphabet soup classes?

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

5 reasons

1. Not my idea. NHRA originally did it back when in stock and then separated back once field was somewhat level. They set the precedent.
2. Then, did it again when the drag packs and gm's and fords came out because they were so much faster than the others (who complained to nhra then)
3. And, they forgot to take the other older fuel injectors with them when they separated
4. The great disparity between many of the fi and carb vehicles are my reasons. (I do always gripe personally about how the 89-L98 350 and the 350/300 in SS have all the same components except ones carb and the other fi - but fi is rated at 275(?) and the 350/300 is at 313 or 318 depending about on the head - which Emily does not run against). Coming out of same shop. 10# break is 430 difference. Cant see the logic there.
5. I like watching races where its not a slaughter by one vehicle under rated. Not sure any one does. In my opinion, as long as the guys are within .1-.15 there's a fighting chance.

Lastly - wont make more classes. Roll them in w the fgt cars.

And no, its not about me or the 3 cars - now 4 - we run here. Love the sport and want to see good competition.

For your info - we run both combinations.

Side bar - While we are at it. I get emails from both Kent (div 1 srac) and Crutch (div 2 srac) along with surveys asking what the racers think. Can you add me to your mailing list? Thanks.

And why make it personnel? Goal is trying to make it better for all of us.

Volkman
412.651.2356

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Nailed it, except for the sticks and auto's. Thats a tough one. But think about it. Forget points and money incentives. Just going to the next round or being able to get throught a tough field of cars. Its so simple and Lonnie can make this happen over night. 1.) No more half point weight breaks for Stock and Super Stock (stock 69 ZL1 cars are already heavy enough), put them at 7# in AA and continue down from there. And GT cars can only run GT and natural super stock cars can only run SS. BOOM! You'll have more heads up runs in one year than the previous 5 years combined.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I would have no problem with running the stick and auto cars together for class. Just use the current indexes and have a handicap start. First to the finish line wins. Similar to the combo class runs we have now. In my combo the stick and auto have different HP ratings and indexes. The stick combo is less HP. So no good way to run heads up.

Change for change sake is never a good thing. Changes to our class structure needs to be thoroughly thought out. Personally I dont see any of these proposed changes helping stock or super stock. The guys with fast and under factored cars will always play the game to protect their combos. I cant blame them.

I have a slow car and it is an un-competitive combo. I qualify at the bottom half of the sheet most of the time. I do have a fun time racing and I did win a divisional race here in D2 this season.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

First off, I would like to commend the Volkman family for their generous postings for number one qualifier in both stk/ss in D 2. Unfortunately, WE are never going to REPAIR stock and super stock racing. Too many classes, too many agendas, and getting the racers to AGREE on anything would be like….like herding CATS….Its not going to happen. Decades ago my close friend Charles Norton wrote a summary detailing the inevitable demise of stock/super stock racing. At the time, his diatribe was quite alarming. Many racers dismissed his doom and gloom report. Now, fast forward years later ….. I think Charles pretty much nailed it…..Like everything in life, ENJOY it while it’s here. NOTHING lasts forever …..

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Just my opinion the 3 tenth hit to the indexes in 2009 , and the mineshaft safety net was the 2 big changes that I saw .

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Regarding Michael's #2 point, Larry Tores built his own engines, and ran Super Stock & Comp back in the 70's & 80's.
I remember seeing him at the track working for NHRA, but that didn't last long. Anyone know why he didn't stick with the NHRA job?

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

How so? Please elaborate.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

In 2008 I forget how fast you needed to go to get HP. But if you could go 1.20 under in 2009 than you would have been 1.50 under in 2008. Just saying . And after the 3 tenth hit it seamed to kill the car count . The mineshaft rule and the 3 tenth hit just seamed like a way out , to not to give out HP to me at least .

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

http://sportsman.nhra.com/content/ab...604&zoneid=101

Pre-2010, the magic numbers were:
-1.40 for an instant hit
-1.15 for a trigger
-1.00 average for a HP increase

Then in 2010, we adjusted the indexes 0.30 and changed the triggers to:
-1.20 for an instant hit (-1.50 vs. old index)
-1.00 for a trigger (-1.30 vs. old index)
-0.85 average for a HP increase (-1.15 vs. old index)

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Being newer to class racing overall after my family has been involved since the 1960s I have a slightly different perspective than most on why I think class racing is suffering. Listening to my grandad talk and explain all the stuff they did back in the day motors were built for a fraction of the cost and built in garages in people's back yards. I think one has to evaluate the financial strain that class racing as involved into today as compared to the 2010s, 2000s, and 1990s. A person can now go out and buy a much cheaper bracket car and enter a local 5K bracket race for entry fee of $100. Very broadly speaking they are typically showing up to the track in a pickup and trailer. Where we as class racers are paying over $200 dollars in entry fees for a low overall winnings. That of course is not including all the rigs and stacker trailers. My family is equally as guilty now for joining the motorhome train. In addition I can say that when my dad and I go to the track we are often greeted positively with comments about third generation of racers in the family. That attribute seems to be rare today and overall we are not drawing in new people at a regular bases to our specific sport. Arbitrarily speaking each generation is unique and has different interest. I think we need to ensure the integrity of the sport is maintained but also find avenues to attract new people into the sport without placing such a high risk low reward outcome on the sport. I can tell you from the countless conversations I have had with my grandad, a Walley meant a lot more to him than it does to me at this point. I of course would love to have one and earn it the right way but it just doesn't have the same appeal today as it did 20 years ago.

Just a newer (2 years) class racers thoughts and opinion. Very proud to have transitioned into class racing and love class racing.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Okay, I see where you're going.I really didn't notice it hurting much of anything though.

That was 12 years ago too. I just looked at St. Louis with 156 cars, and you'd have to look long and hard to find anyone who can't go 3 tenths under the current indexes.
Seems to me, if it's really supposed to be a performance eliminator, there has to be some give and take on both ends.. meaning lower the indexes X amount every few years and raise the triggers X amount to keep things balanced for the sake of progress.
Otherwise eventually, every time there's a heads up run , somebody's getting hp. Everyone else is de-tuned or ET dropping to avoid the trigger.
I know, some people want the hits...for the other combo in their class, but where will it end? With just more 1000' runs, I'd guess.
This is giving me a headache, I do know that much.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

3 tenths under at Numidia in July is 7 tenths under at the Dutch.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Would also like to say that having spoken to Lonnie and Ned, they both want to bring it back to racing as we know it but their hands are tied because 1) they aren't stk/ss guys - never claimed to be - and try to react to what he racers want or were told they want. They also know they need a stk/ss experienced person/people who know what's really happening and can read between the lines. It be no different if they threw me in super comp. Would take time to figure it out and then multiply that by all the classes and their agendas who believe they are most important. Tough job for anyone.

Look no further than Mr.(Stock/Superstock) Dave Ley

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I believe lowering the indexes actually influences racers to add the expensive enhancements to make HP

In 2009 came out with my stocker after building it from scratch for 5 years. I had some good people to talk to and massaged the car front to back. Engine and trans were quality but not what would be called state of the art. After reading and hearing as well as getting solid advice to not get disappointed if it couldn't run the index it did the first run by the end of the year could go -.90, was competitive and did some damage. 2010 the index dropped .3 was able to find another .10 with -.70 the best it would go.

Well after a few races the ladder was no longer friendly and became obvious a couple of faster cars were always setting up for and easy heads up. Got tired of trying to avoid them along with some looking down their nose at me. As Gino advised several times "opened my wallet". The car was pretty well massaged as I constantly worked on it and the tune another good comment was "Frank all you need HP".

So the Italian came out........

Would not have done all the expensive "updates" if the indexes were left alone, all that happened was those who were protecting their combination sped up. My old engine could go 300 runs not vary much in HP and need a basic freshen, the good engine wants attention after every season.
Won't regret what I learned and the good people met during the process though!!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

If this is REALLY supposed to be a performance (based) eliminator then NHRA needs to have knowledgeable people in the right places to make absolutely certain that the rules (as written) are being followed! And no, not having qualified people in the right places is no excuse. They (NHRA) seems to have plenty of qualified people in place to tech the Pros who have far looser rules than we (S/SS) do. No letting things slide for certain combos (and certain people) and no turning a blind eye to certain "enhancements" (heads) for fear of being hit with a lawsuit.
Start enforcing the rules as written and watch things (cars) slow down.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

" Combine sticks and automatics"

"Eliminate half pound breaks"

I can think of as many problems with this as there are advantages.

For the advocates of these, what do you hope to accomplish, and what do you do about the inherent problems they create? ...and believe me there are many when you study the details.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

So if you combine stick and auto, do you use the index that is the fast of the two or the slower? Also, if you're going to do that, what about the weight deduct for autos in the Modified classes? Same question there, do you use the indexes as is or do you recalculate for the lighter auto weights?

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Alot of good points here, Mike and Billy, but i would like too add to this , but WHY nothing will happen they made the new rule for next year already, and they will not change a thing, you cannot fix STUPID and i think if you do not have a car in computation , stay OUT of this subject.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I guess I didn't make any good points and not actively in computation at Nationals and divisionals but I do race local combo races now as do a lot of others. We run the exact same rules horsepower classification whatever and we do have heads up runs so what happens on the national stage also affects us so we are here t o o.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Boy Quack, I HOPE that you're not talking about me!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

He definitely isn’t Billy. I would suspect he’s talking about some people who post on here with their vision of how stock and super stock should be, but are not active participants of either class.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

What these folks that advocate the above changes are hoping to do is return the class back to being a performance based class. Another step in that direction would be qualified fields at National Events. Making Stock a more performance based class would spread the sheer joy of demonstrating performance that we love at Indy, to all National events. Adding these elements would also address problems associated with the AFHS relatively quickly, with so many more racers having to show what they got more frequently.

It would be interesting to see a poll among active stock/SS racers on if these ideas have broad support. There are certainly downsides to consider.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Darin, Actually that was a leading question for the sake of discussion here.
Some folks just like to toss out these ideas without thinking through the ramifications of them.
Let's try this :
Starting in March, 202X, NHRA combines sticks with automatics.
A guy with a SS/L car can go 8 under. Another guy with a SS/LA can go 9 under.
Going by the automatic index, the stick car can now go a second under.
The auto guy isn't going to like that one bit.What does he do? He tries to get the stick guy to hit the 1 sec. under trigger. Even if he does force a hit twice, he's got at least part of the year to live with getting outrun, heads up.
Someone might say..Easy . NHRA has to put some hp in the stick combo.
The stick guy has to add a bunch of weight, or move up a class ...Neither which sounds too appealing to him.
Too bad, someone might say. This is all in the interest of creating more heads up runs.

BTW..Does anyone think that NHRA is going to follow up on leveling all these combined classes, expeditiously?

Think this stuff through, guys ..You just might end up being stung by what you wish for.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

It's a mess. So many angles and opinions and no mater what is done someone is going to be angry. And then we can't understand why NHRA doesn't know what direction to take. Shoot - you can't even say something on this board, brainstorming without getting a call or two :).

Probably most would agree that we want more heads up racing.

Probably most would agree that the way out combos - relative to their particular stock or s/stock class (and maybe not in regards to the whole eliminator) need railed back to a point within xx of the others. (The guys at the 90-1.10 mark are the ones I personally think need a break.)

Probably most would agree that when it is railed in, NHRA or the system doesn't kill the combo. It also needs grass roots knowledge of combo/class to determine if hp should be given at all. example: Take 2 cars in G/SA - heads up both go 1.05 under and are within .02 of each other and with the whole group there is only .1 difference - why bother them?

We know from past experience that a 1 strike hit isn't good for several reasons. Mineshaft, heads up, etc.

Two with averaging doesn't get us anywhere if there are many cars with combo.

What if 3 strikes against combo gets it with human oversight based on facts and not opinions. Wish there were a way that we could help NHRA with decisions and no bias from outside. There's a bunch of smart racers, someone has to have an answer.

One last thing for the night. We need to be careful poking the bear. There has never been any outright hint that they don't want or need stk/ss. It's just the opposite but sometimes there's poor execution. In reality, the aggravation we cause and never let them win would have caused me to eliminate the source. What I'm saying is they don't need us. Kevin P calculated the $$ once. They don't get much. We need them. I hear a lot about partnership and customers and not being treated well. I agree and sometimes it makes you wonder. But here is the bottom line. If they said tomorrow. We're done next year w stk/ss (like what has been done with the trucks and look at pro stock) we all would have a pile of iron. We need them and all these other organizations that come and go don't have jack Jones (The coveted Wally) and the racers - you and I who love class racing and struting like a peacock after winning.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

I've gotta call B.S. on this one! Take S/SS out of the equation on a Divisional level and there would be a vast majority of tracks losing loads of money at Div. and N.O. races instead of possibly making a few bucks. I don't know about what would happen out west but take out the S/SS stuff and there soon would be no LODRS east of the Mississippi.

Ya know, 156 Stockers on a Thursday had to make SOMEBODY a few bucks! (don't always believe in the company line)

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

We are at St Louis and from what I observed everyone is happy, the track, NHRA, and above all the racers are very happy to be at such a great place with the volume of competition.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Keep in mind NHRA is a Business . They have to have a lot of "Profit Centers" such as the Sportsman are one of those Profit Centers.NHRA gets money from us with fees,NHRA gets money with Advertising for Sportsman, in national Dragster, entry fees membership fees, and track fees get my point about income and I guarantee that NHRA accountants don't care where the money comes from as long as there is an income flow as any business would be

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Don, I never insinuated that NHRA is not a business. Now I'll be the first one to admit that I (unlike you) am NOT a businessman but I DO know the value of money! I also know that the only way to keep the doors open on any business (even a badly run one) is to keep the "customers" (at another time would you please explain to me the difference between a customer and a member?) happy. If the NHRA was satisfied (as a business) with the income from spectators and "member tracks" then we would have been gone LONG ago. The fact that we're not gone must mean that we (the Sportsmen) must be at least, if not more than holding up our end.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Billy- I sent you a PM

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

[QUOTE=Billy Nees;668800]I've gotta call B.S. on this one! Take S/SS out of the equation on a Divisional level.....

Yep you may be right Billy. I was thinking more in line at the National level. I believe what Don said to be true. They just want the numbers and I am not saying they want to dump us. They could easily pull in S/Street to fill spots and add SG and SC numbers to hit their number with reduce aggravation.

Division wise, St Louis double is an anomaly. End of year, guys and girls need points and only other option is Orlando next week for East Coast.

And Larry - of course racers are happy. They're racing. Knox (my boy) took his 1st jr dragster pass at Galot points and got out of the car and said "that was awesome".

We have Charlotte and Bristol that won't take a divisional race cause no $$. I'm not exactly sure what that means. It does seem some track operators are shakers and movers and get turnouts and others not. Va in D1 is not on schedule for 2023 for National. Points, Anyone know?

What I am saying and the point I want to make is that the racers need to get into a common bond/solution/opinion and say this is what we want and it needs to be, in my opinion, majority rules, racers feed to SRAC and to NHRA.

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Ya know, back in the good-old-days before bruton became a Natl. Event track owner, IF you were given a Natl. Event, you HAD to have a Div. Event! Va. doesn't have a Natl.? Give Va. 2 and hold another 1 at Gainesville! If Vegas can have a Div. (a very successful one!), then why shouldn't Charlotte and Bristol? Personally, I feel that we need to get rid of at least a few Natl. Events anyway. The market is over-saturated. Make Natl. Events big ordeals again instead of "weekly affairs"!

Re: Lets Root Cause the Detriment of Class Racing
 

Bring back top stock and top super stock. Top 16 qualifiers race a separate bracket for same money as the rest of field or some other purse. This showcases the performance of the classes and pushes people to run as hard as they can. Flame away!