Billet cams and lifter supply
 

So i think its time to have a serious conversation about the problem that we are having right now with lifters and cam cores .Again --- this time its billet or steel cams and what kind of lifter material you are going to put on the billet cam. This is a problem only with flat tappets, so those using rollersmay not even be aware. So how many 'just stockers" using flats are there?? If u r one of those racers or eng. builders that have tried ordering a set of steel lifters to put on your steel cam, you know there are none ,zero avail. anywhere,and back ordered 6months or more. It seems to me that the eng. builders don't want to talk about it in public. (why? maybe they all think that their customers (racers) believe that their builder is the only one who knows how to get a bigger cam lobe and use more spring pressure than all the other guys. LMAO as its some big secret haha (it isn't). All the top builders know how to do it. So no one talks about it. But NOW its a problem for everyone. Want a new cam ,great heres one.$500 Example -Want some steel tappets to go on that fancy new cam- sorry Sic dont got any. Well we have just a couple sets coated with DLC cost$2200 or more.and if they bounce just one time they will destroy your engine. Not our fault. So i started this thread because i know a little bit about materials and coatings, not everything ,but a little. So why dont some of you builders who belong to Classracer get in this conversation and see if we can find a solution,because it is not going away anytime soon. I know this likely does not affect the cars with smaller engines or cam specs. that dont use a lot of spring pressure. But most do. So as much as us older guys don't like all the rule changes, allowing not original parts ,it might be time to have this discussion with NHRA to save the pre 1987 cars. Because all of the roller motors (engines) do not have this problem. as Mr. William said "tis not that i love Caesar less, but that i love Rome (classracing) more. I am posting this on top forum also.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

Good Luck This topic has been addressed many times over many years NHRA does not want to talk about it, oh they listen ,and look at the the damage shown to them but well you can see the results ,also their is the other Racers that the minute anyone says
Lifters they are quick to say that is one more step closer to super stock but they all have the all the many steps closer in there car !

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This is a unique problem now that there are none. Compared to before where racers just wanted to switch to a roller lifter when flat tappet steel lifters were available. Not many will say anything until they are the ones waiting for a new set to be made. And then they find out 6 months to a year and at twice the price they were. The excuse that Stock would be one step closer to Super Stocker doesn't fly. Not when you have cars running in Stock that are closer to comp than to Stock. I don't need a set right now but I know several racers that are waiting for them. With no real time line when to expect any. I know one racer that was quoted recently $2400 and about a year wait. I get if the rules weren't changed and they didn't allow some of the valve train changes we wouldn't have this problem. That horse left the barn years ago. I try to look forward instead of what if's. BP

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

Yes, there is a supply chain issue with parts.
The current catalog solid lifters have metallurgy and manufacturing issues.

PPPC, Trend and Crower manufacture the best solid lifters for use with billet camshaft cores. DLC is a nanocomposite coating and there are different types of DLC coatings that contain a different matrix. Never seen a lifter fail due to the DLC coating failing to what you call "bouncing". The only lifters I have seen fail had a ceramic puck added to the contact area.

If you valve "bouncing" on your lifters, then you have other problems that need to be addressed such as an unstable valvetrain and/or valvetrain issues..

Stock Eliminator is not the only class being affected due to the quality of solid lifters. There are many circle track associations, with sealed and non-sealed engines experiencing the same issues and many are considering the allowance of roller lifters.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

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Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

The other side of the coin is if all the associations including NHRA allow rollers. How long will it take to be a supply chain issue for rollers? Are they available for every engine make?

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If you want roller lifters, they are legal...in Super Stock.

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There are power making aftermarket parts now that are only available for Chevys like the Dart blocks and other rule allowances that are available for most engines but were a serious performance gain for mostly popular GM engines.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

Why not just build a 1985 or newer and stay in Stock Eliminator most all have roller lifters from the factory , 38 years ago the American car manufactures pretty much switched to roller lifters ,and for a good reason the oil formulation changed , so fast forward to today ,like I have said before where were many of the keep the flat tappet cam alive racers when all the other rule changes over the years case in point a 68 Corba Jet C/SA went about 11.40 in 1978 ,today 10.30 I ran one 50 years ago ,and have a very clear understanding of how one goes over a second faster today. Wouldn't be all the rule changes would it, the same rule changes that apply today for most if not all the racers that say the same old if you want roller lifters ,they are legal ...in Super Stock
But wait what about all the rule changes racers took on there own to enhance other parts of the engine at a extremely high cost well we will just look the other way at those rule changes made by the racers themselves , the point is why other than for a few racers would the lifter problem be fixed by going to roller lifters at not only a much lower cost but ,and able to buy them .

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I am sick and tired of listening to the excuse "Supply Chain Issues". It is 2022, two years removed from Covid. All these companies showcase @ SEMA and PRI products they cannot produce, "Do your damn Job or close your Doors". I run a Construction Co in NYC, We NEVER stopped during Covid Nor Delayed projects. Incompetent people with excuses.

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Jim, Why didn't I think about that. So all you guys that have an older than 85 car and need a set of lifters that are going to last. Just put your cars in a car crusher. Maybe Jim will post his phone number and start giving away his money if you can't afford a Super Stocker.

Jeff V don't get me wrong I like the new cars in Stock but most are closer to comp motor's than old school Stockers. With your car you don't have to worry about them.

James Perrone I'd guess knowing your engine builder you already have a set of Tool Steel lifters in your car. What if you break and need to fix it?

Sam I'm not sure how many sets of roller lifters there are but with almost all race engine using them. I'm sure the supply has to be greater than flat tappet lifters. I used Schubecks for years with no problems. But we all know someone that has lost a motor with them. I offered my old set to a friend but his engine builder wouldn't use them.

Rich I'm sure we all agree with you. We can only hope for change in our Country. I sold my business at the beginning of the year because I'm done counting on employee's. But it still doesn't fix the problem.

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Ahhh, bidenflation and universal economic incompetence. Or is it intentional. Love him or hate him, TRUMP had USA revving on all cylinders. And even peace breaking out in the Middle East! Tuesday is Election Day. Are you 'satisfied' with the current condition or maybe start to get back to where we SHOULD BE?!

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

I also work in the commercial construction world. Same here we never missed a day of work during covid. During that time all of the back stock was used up. Now we are having real supply chain issues. On the project I am working on now we had to wait a full year for the roof membrane. Now waiting for AC units that were ordered 8 months ago are still several months out for manufacture and delivery. The main electrical gear from Square D is over a year lead time. Waiting for an emergency generator from Cummins/Onan that has been on order for over a year and is 3 months overdue. Thats just a short list. concrete shortages. had a hard time getting 12 inch CMU. Insulated hurricane glass is a 6 month lead time. Then we had the hurricane about a month ago and the power company has paused all new construction projects while they ae in storm reconstruction mode . All of this is affecting our completion dates.

I can only imagine what these small high performance manufacturers are going through. I need to freshen my engine in the next several months to be ready for next year. Not sure if rings, valves and springs will be available. I guess i will find out here real soon. unfortunatly i dont see it improving any time soon.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

I guess the only solution I can think of to avoid this issue is to use a camshaft where you don't need a special set of lifters. I understand the benefits of a billet camshaft, along with the different pricy lifter options, but that's not really in my price range, so for now I make due with what I can afford. I actually found a small, family owned company out in California that sells flat tappet lifters made in the USA by Johnson Lifters. I've had very good luck with them even with my relatively square 6 cylinder camshaft profile, and plan to use them on my small block build this winter. Yes, billet cams are great, only if you can afford it along with the special lifters, even the cheap ones. It can be quite discouraging to even want to tackle building a stocker for a popular class with the knowledge that some of your competitors have cylinder heads on their engines that cost them about the same if not more than I am spending to build an entire engine. Though limited, there are combos in the guide you cannot physically get roller lifters for, so how would it be fair to allow roller lifters in all stockers? It's interesting to see how the same people that say "if you don't like that your combo doesn't accept aftermarket parts, choose a different combo" don't like being told "if you want roller lifters, either choose a roller lifter combination, or move to super stock." There's a lot of similarities with this as there are in allowing aftermarket heads for combos you "can't find head castings for anymore." If this does materialize, I would be more inclined to roll with it as long as there is an added hp if you decide to use roller lifters, but that could get a bit tedious to police. For now, I guess I'll see what I can do with a bit of "yesterday's technology" and hopefully be somewhat competitive. Plus there's a great deal of fun to be had in "scraping together" a stocker.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

There are some options if one does not want or can not afford to go the Tool steel/DCL lifter route.
Yes PPPC was saying lifter lead times were very long due to them having their machine down and they could not get it fixed. They could recondition lifters however .
I believe it is now repaired and running. I did get my set after 6 months wait .
Short of a Tool steel cam core, using P55 core and uncoated tool steel lifters will allow you to run 200-210 on the seat , 390 -400 over the nose. Only issue is you only get maybe 80-90 runs with it.
P 55 Cams are pretty cheap. You can get PPPC to polish the lifter face for 140.00 a set and a 1 week turnaround time.
Changing cams is a 3-4 hour job with a Comp 3 piece timing cover.
Certainly cost effect compared to TS/DCL 3 -4 K cost.
I just ordered a Total Seal ring set and spacers, Keith indicated 8 weeks.
Flat Tappet / Roller Cams in Stock debate, if they do every make this change, please NHRA
allow either or and 12 months advance notification of the change.

Steve Teeter Stk/SS 620.

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Oh only a 6 months, it's now over a year now I have been waiting , so I did what all the (one more change to stock) Guy's are saying ,I built a Super stock engine to run in the mean time with the $ 650.00 dollar roller lifters while I wait for the what I think will be the $1400.00 to $ 2400.00 set . Lol

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Was told yesterday NO P55 cores and are not going to make anymore either,that’s at Bullet and they have/had a very good core inventory awhile back......

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It is not only the automotive industry that is having supply chain issues.
I work for a supplier of military equipment and hardware for the Department of Defense.

We have a contract and are the sole supplier of all the fasteners that are used by the military on aircraft, ground vehicles and weapon systems for overhaul, repair and maintenance and have over 60K of SKU's we need to fulfill. We are talking of AN, MS, NAS fasteners such as bolts, screws, nuts, washers, rivets, etc...

Due to the supply chain issues for materials and many manufacturers closing, we have lead times on some items of 2 and 3 years! Also, the prices of many of the items we quoted , have increased in price as much as 60% from the original quote.

Yes, there is a supply chain issue in many ways for racing parts and also with the mergers, many companies have quit manufacturing many products.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

A simple but costly solution: Made In The USA

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How about this for a solution, get off your inflated egos and build slow, cheap combos that can be put together with E-Bay and salvage yard parts! In the end, we're all running for the same pathetic purse.

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And for those of you who don't know Doug, he's a pretty darned smart 19 year old "kid" !

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[QUOTE=B Parker;670286]Jim, Why didn't I think about that. So all you guys that have an older than 85 car and need a set of lifters that are going to last. Just put your cars in a car crusher. Maybe Jim will post his phone number and start giving away his money if you can't afford a Super Stocker.

Barry: I'm just not for rules that turn Stock into Super Stock. Racers wanted unlimited valve springs....they got them. Racers wanted roller rockers (even though Clark Holroyd's stuff was legal)...and they got them too. Add to that, and now some are calling for legalizing roller lifters on applications that never came with them. What's next, 14" x 32"'s and Edelbrock intakes? Personally, I have absolutely no interest in running Super Stock...it's been literally transformed into Comp.

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John, I thought you were going with to race SS GT class with a 350 2 barrel?
How about a 5 HP penalty for Roller cam in stock?
If a change to Roller Cams is made then change the piston rings to what ever rings you want. Spacers are get expensive as well. Oh and then for low compression motors how about making pump gas legal in stock as well. Could save some money there as well. .

Steve Teeter Stk/SS 620

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

Heres my 2 cents.. I lost a motor at the beginning of 2022. A shubeck lifter broke. That did in the whole short block. Now I am trying to get the motor done for 2023. I have made many calls and talked with people who make lifters. The best one I talked to was a man at Howard Cams. He explained they could not get Trend tool steel lifters to sell. They did have them advertised for $699.00 Talked to Trend and yes $2400.00 and a year wait. The man from Howards explainded the company the made lifter cups went out of buisness at the start of Covid. I wrote NHRA tech department and tried to explain my position... No lifters...Yes I did ask about alowing rollers. Not because I wanted to gain performance but I wanted to race. They are in so many stockers with roler lifters now.... But they did not go for it..

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17 months for me and still no lifters, can’t finish the car anyway because it’s been in the paint shop for over a year. ( they have labor shortage also) At least the slow pace has spread out my spending and the wife doesn’t notice too much. I’m not getting any younger and I still hope I can go racing when this thing is finished!

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Bubski’s thinking !! It sure would be more cost effective and in the spirit of stock eliminator rules to go back to the valve spring rule and forget about all of this nonsense with exotic materials and changing the rules to be closer to SS !! How can it be possibly cheaper to redesign your entire valve train ?? All that needs to be done is go back to what used to work in Stock !! Why can’t change ever go backwards to what worked previously ?? Why does change always move toward more problems and expense ??

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

I cant agree more. Put the valve spring rule back in place and it will make all this go away. We even have two steps to kill the valve spring pressure a bit before tear down now.

I can only imagine all the letters of superseded valve springs appearing over night.

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It won't come to that if they can come up with something somewhat easy to police. Maybe stock dia. and height +/- something and no more than 180/200 on the seat.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

IHRA Pure stock rules; problem solved.

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How much money will it cost when the 500.00 roller lifter explodes and it destroys the short block? Then we will need the parts to complement the lifters. Maybe titanium retainers, valves, etc. how much are Jesel lifters? 4K and up? Then we need keyed slot bushings for the good lifters. But this will fix everything, right. If I had to wait 14 months for tool steel lifters, I’d be trying to make a standard solid lifter work. Cam profile, spring combo, break in procedure and so on. Maybe you have to run softer profile cams so they last? Work with what you have? I’d take this route if I wanted to race and not sit out.

Remember when people on the board said if we just all had solid lifters it would be so much cheaper and easier to find and police? I guess all those people retried or quit racing? The same bullchit was said about roller rockers. Look where we are now?

Keep making these cars resemble SS rules cars and the NHRA can just cancel out the stock class and save a bunch of money and effort. They basically don’t want us there anyway. Your helping their cause by coming on here and asking for SS rules for our engines.

Forget about pure stock rules and enforcement. That ship sailed in the 80’s.

People here suggest a valve spring rule. That will even the playing field.
What happens when someone with a unlimited budget tells their engine builder to make that work no matter what the cost. Then you have put the cost even higher for racers to keep up.

If you want roller lifters in stock, run a car that came with them

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To me the madness needs to stop.
Repeat after me......Stock Eliminator.

Honestly we should be held to the same materials and type of lifters the cars came with. That's what makes Stock Eliminator so much fun.

If you want Super Stock options run Super Stock.

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I knew it would only be a matter of time before you once again came up with your one sided reasons as you have in the past , you may not look the fool if you did not make up your one sided scenarios ,and look at today's facts ! When you use (someone) as you do that is a assumption of which you seem to have many , and not all are facts , I and others agree with you are cars are closer to super stock than ever , with that said
they are what they are today ,and today going forward is all that matters .

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Look the fool? What did I say that’s one sided? What facts did I make up that’s not true? Roller lifters don’t break? People didn’t push for solid lifter years ago and now they are not good enough we need rollers? Sorry this displeases you. I thought this is an open forum with a free exchange of ideas. Just one opinion ( my own ) I’m not for the roller lifters in non roller combos. That’s all. Have a nice day

Some peoples moving forward may not be others ideas of moving forward.

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Bubski is like WTF !! At no time did Bubski say going back to the old rules would level the field !! Bubski is well aware of those that have the resources will always come out on top !! Money , contacts , and determination, etc !! Will always prevail !! What Bubski is saying !! " Lets bring back the STOCK to STOCK ELIMINATOR " NHRA has in the past reeled in the Pros to limit their performance !! And now its time to reel in the sportsmen !! 180-200 on the seat is laughable !! Most of the older engines were under a 100 to a little over a 100 on the seat !! How about a 10% increase from the old tech sheets across the board on seat and open pressures ?? Everyone now gets the same thing !! Remember !! Besides from bringing Stock into Stock !! Its not any good to race in Stock if you can't get the parts to show up and race !! Going back to what always worked before must be better than starting from scratch with a bunch of Hi Dollar parts that are not in the Spirit of Stock !! More like SS

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Machine at PPPC is not fixed. I was there this morning. Have plenty of raw material to work with but no machine to operate. Also the operator didn't know when it would be fixed

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Ya know, just when I was starting to kind of like you! There's no way that we are going to go back to OEM valve springs. It would be too much for too many combos to absorb and NHRA has proven time-and-time again that it's not going to allow combos to be turned into trash overnight (lawsuits?).
Knowing what some smallblock Stockers are running for spring pressures now, I thought that 180-200 would be an acceptable (and easy to police) compromise.

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Two simple questions 1. This has been said for months now ,I was told it was the computer that needs repair
2. How many back orders are there
If I/we can get the answers it may indicate the likelihood if I/we ever see our lifter orders filled , case in point if it is 1 or 2 orders pending then the chances are slim to none

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Yep still going with the 350 2 barrel that is if there's still a track left in town LoL

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Y’all get the rules fix and we will try to live by them.

Re: Billet cams and lifter supply
 

One of the many issues is the quality of the lifter, especially, materials and sizing. The sizing problem creates issues with lifter bore clearance and also when the lifter does not have a crown and the lobe does not have a taper.

It does not matter if the valve spring pressures are restored to the old rules. Too may engine builders are seeing camshaft and lifter failures even on mild street builds.

There is only one lifter manufacturer for solid and hydraulic lifters left in the USA.