thin ring grooves
 

With all the talk about allowing this or that in stock.I've wondered about letting thin ring grooves to be allowed in Pistons. Most all the late model cars have thin rings, and a lot of older combinations are using thin rings with spacers in their engines.Keep the ring grooves in stock location and have pistons cut for thin rings. Ring costs are bad enough as it is without throwing all these spacers into the mix. Just my thoughts.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Out of all the wishes and wants for stock eliminator, this one makes the most $ense. I’ve sent a few emails to Pat on the subject..


Happy Holidays

Re: thin ring grooves
 

How about just making Stockers run the stock size ring?

Re: thin ring grooves
 

This seems to make the most sense to try and keep the stock in stock eliminator. Maybe a headache to enforce though.

With custom grooves in stock pistons, I can almost imagine nhra allowing a super stock type piston in stock, and allowing any compression ratio in super stock.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Gump usually has good ideas, and this is one. My fear, is that the more
aggressive Ring producers will continue to innovate and will
produce a step down, Diamond Coated, Titanium sided, Stainless Steel,
dipped in gold ring, that at the end of the day, with R&D will cost a lot
more than we now pay.

J.R.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

That's ok if you want to make the old cars run old technology like wide rings. If you want to make things equal you should ban the late model Challengers/Mustangs/Camaros that run traditional stock classes from taking advantage of the older driveline parts they use. In other words, they must run the rear ends they came with. I think the deepest gear in the Challenger rear end is a 3.70. Also require them to run the OE 8 speed automatics. This would be even easier to police than ring size. All you have to do is look under the car. Also the late model cars should be required to run OE type suspension with bolt on parts like the older cars. No weld up link bars and that type of thing. Also no crossbreeding parts, a Camaro has to run a Chev rear end and transmission.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Oh, you mean like JR.Stock in 1971?
I'm surprised we're not already back there...and where would you like the ring groove to be placed?

Re: thin ring grooves
 

1967-1968 we cut ring new grooves in stock pistons higher up on our 283/220.....John Hoffman did the pistons...
Was worth a couple tenths

1970 Stocker pistons had narrower rings cut higher up
Forged trues I think they were....

Makes no sense to me to require stock grooves 50 years later and have to use various spacers and still use thin rings

Re: thin ring grooves
 

OK, I'll bite. How about we do away with all of the "enhancements" for all makes, years, and models?

A couple of years ago, I got a to build a couple of Camaros to test all of the factory drag parts. I'm not afraid of your proposal at all. That's as long as it applies to you too....

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Cooooool! What a concept man.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Just a thought, thin ring groves over stock groves. Engine builders would love to have the thin ring groves. Not having to deal with the stupid spacers would help reduce the man hours on building an engine. Not to mention the cost savings to the racers. How many of us had the spacers stick and not allow the rings to seal? Then you had to take apart the engine to free up the spacer and the rings. I have a new set of pistons on order as of last week. I would love to be able to legally have thin ring groves and never use spacers again.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Didja ever notice that every off-season SOMETHING NEW pops up that is going to require most Racers to spend money on their Stockers to make them less stock? Why is that?

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Maybe they had the rule structure right back in 1971? I understand people not supporting different rule changes, or proposed rule changes, because of the cost associated with it. I get that. I also don't think you'll find too many people happy with having to spend money on the spacers every time they freshen a motor. That is a consistent purchase all the time. The only people happy are total seal because they get to charge you for it.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

They don't "have" to buy them. They "choose" to buy them.

Sometimes, being one of the COOL KIDS costs money....

Re: thin ring grooves
 

The ring grooves are flat, the rings are flat, those spacers are not.

Best way to go is to back cut (a lot), and gas port the OE width rings....... seals better and runs faster, but ring sales guy (whose never built a motor his entire life) won't be on board with that as it costs less lol

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Ok with me, but no "factory drag parts" have to use parts the cars came with including the OE wheel diameter. I know that there are 17" front drag wheels and tires but am not aware of and slicks that fit 17" wheels other than fuel dragster tires. I suppose these late model cars will have to run some sort of rally tires on the back.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Does that mean that most 8 & 9 second GT cars will run 12 or 13 inch
wheels?

J.R.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

We're not talking about GT cars, or Factory Stock/Super Stock or any of those classes. Just talking about the late model cars that are allowed to run in traditional Stock Eliminator classes. Also,if we are being genuine, all of our cars must revert to the original OE horsepower ratings, none of this subtract 12% business. I admit I have a small gift on my car, I would have to add about 50lbs. From what I see most late model muscle cars would have to add about 600lbs. or so. That would seem to even things out.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Didn't mean to hijack this post, I just found it a little odd that someone with a late model stock eliminator car wants older combinations to use stock piston rings when the late model cars have enjoyed a wealth of "gifts" from NHRA. Why don't they just limit Stock to 2009 and newer cars.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Ya know, this means that your Mn. Max wedge will have to use 14" wheels!

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Watch what you wish for, it might come true! It happened once back in the '70's.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Which "gifts" would you say are specific to the 2009 and newer cars?

Re: thin ring grooves
 

How about a 9" Ford rear end

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Ya know, I personally don't see this as an advantage. I'd much rather deal with the frictional losses of a 12 bolt or a Dana in a "Stocker".

Getting back on track here, my preference for "sealing up" a motor has always been a 5/64 groove with a good old fashioned cast iron "claimer" ring set.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

That's the obvious one. I was against that when they made it legal for the production cars.

What else?

Re: thin ring grooves
 

I don't see the 9" Ford as an advantage. In fact, it might mean additional
expense for some that have put a 12 bolt carrier in to reduce the frictional losses inherent to the Ford 9".

J.R.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Maybe you would rather have the 10L90 ten speed transmission in the car instead of the T200 or T350? That's what came in them didn't it. I understand the earlier versions had 8 speeds.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Just wondering, did your car come OEM equipped with a ProTrans?

J.R.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

You are really winning my argument here. The transmission rule was in place WAY before 2009. My 1995 Formula had that "gift" available to it when I built it in 1995.


This is a thread that I have on another site that shows some of the work that I did with Chevrolet.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=538617

Both cars have the eight-speed. So far, they have lived. With the crazy low first gear set they really don't need a lot of rear gear. I think that I could make them work in Stock Eliminator. It would be very expensive to do. (Note the 17" slicks...)

When we wrote the TI forms for the 2015 Camaro we included the six speed automatic that came in the production car. Nobody has tried to run one (that I know of). One reason for that would be the lack of available safety items that are required to go 9.99.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

There is really no argument to win. I'm impressed that you tested those transmissions (really). The expense argument is laughable, if you're concerned with expense you should probably be bracket racing. I'm not trying to make any argument. There is another post on this forum where a man is fighting for his life. The stuff we are discussing is chicken ***** by comparison. I doubt that the things we are talking about will have any effect on what's happening. Thanks for the verbal jousting, I enjoyed it, no hard feeling. I'm out. Have a nice day.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

I agree.


I have a budget like everyone else. I like to see ROI in my program. If the rules allow it, and it goes faster for less money, that's what I'm spending my money on.

That said, I will remind you that the OP's argument for going to a new piston rule is cost.


You would be surprised who reads these threads...


Here too. As much as I like racing new combinations, I think you will find that I am one of the biggest advocates for keeping the older combinations in class racing.

Take Care,

Daren

Re: thin ring grooves
 

One thing that has come to mind recently (being that I recently bought one) is what it would look like to do a 2010 Camaro. I know it's not as favorable for horsepower like the 2015, but with the shipping weight, it's a natural C car. In my opinion, it would be very neat to build one of these cars, retaining as much as the stock components as possible. Apart from the obvious engine work, you could probably make the 6l80 live without too many issues. HP tuners could definitely handle making the stock ecu work. This same concept can be applied to just about any 2010 and newer Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger. Just thinking out loud.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

I would drop the stock ECU for a Holley Dominator or Terminator-X. There is just too much junk in the stock ECU that isn't applicable to a race car. Neither one currently has the capability to run the six-speed, but there are add-on controllers available.

I started to build a 2010 from a body-in-white before I got the 2012 COPO. I think that it can be a pretty good combination.

Re: thin ring grooves
 

Wouldn't the ten speed be enough of an advantage to make up for it's weight and rotating drag? It's close ratios could allow a big cam with a narrow power band and it doesn't shock the tires much on shifts.