Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

What is the purpose????????????????????


I did an analyses of the top ten qualifiers several years ago and very seldom are they in the semi's


If you doubt this have NITRO JOE do it.



The only possible positive is you might get a bye run.



If you can run the index you are competitive.


I guess it is all EGO,. You know the mine is bigger than yours thing.


Oh well, have a go at me, will check back on your responses in a couple of weeks. It is ok to call me an A#$ H&**.


Just asking


Sarge

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Only one purpose Sarge, to set the ladder. Someone has to be number one.

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

It’s the way we have been run since the inception of our class I believe. Not having a predetermined ladder based off qualification, competition could pick their first round opponent’s by just waiting and following them in. In a normal bracket race that’s fine because everyone is equal. We are not because of the possibility of heads up races during eliminations. Obviously cars are at a different performance level and advantage than others. Just my take. I take it you’re not a fan?

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Random Pairing sucks.

Would you have it laddered for 2nd rd on or random through out eliminations?

If laddered for 2nd round would you base the ladder of indexes, closest to dial in or reaction time?

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Sarge, I kinda got to agree with you. My late brother (David Jackson) had some fast Super Stockers over the over the last 40 years. We talked a lot about the racers that were always top qualifiers vs the finalist, Biondo and Bertozzi were always the first two that came up when talking about the finals. David said for the last 12 or so years "I can't drive a lick anymore but if I get em heads up I'll catch em at 1000foot mark and ride with them lol" Donald Jackson

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

That's what makes Stock and Superstock such a great class. It's 2 types of racing, it has performance based heads up racing and bracket racing all wrapped in one. Some guys love the heads up stuff (mine is bigger than yours thing) that's where the qualifying comes into the picture. They're happy to qualify high and that makes them feel good and if they do well in the eliminator that's icing on the cake. Other guys like the bracket part better and play the qualifying game to set up the eliminator. It's been run this way from the beginning and IMHO it's WAY COOL!!!



Bret Velde
2003 ??/SA

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Qualifying is a known benchmark in a performance based class. Trying to extract maximum performance within fairly restrictive rules is the challenge. If you approach the line on "kill" you are acknowledging you may not take it home in one piece...stupid?, Yes but some thrive on the edge...there is great satisfaction in qualifying position even though
there is no real benefit

As Garth Brooks sings, you can stand outside the fire, life is not tried, it is merely survived, if you stand outside the fire

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Randall Whoever changed the AHFS this year to what we have now really has no idea about what makes some of us tic. Or maybe they have stock in racing oil companies. It used to be how many quarts you could get away with running without hurting your motor. Now it's how many can you run without making whip cream out of it and hurting parts. BP

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Some of you might remember (I'm sure Sarge will) when you had to wait 2-3 weeks to see who made the top 16.
First thing some would look at...Then the record page.
Maybe it's not such a big deal today, with store bought engines, transmissions, and complete cars,..plus, up to 128 cars that all run under the index.
I wouldn't want to see it changed though.
Maybe just give 10 pts. for no.1, and down to 1 pt. for 10th.

Look out...Incoming !

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

In Stock it seems to be more of a chance for a heads up in certain classes and that depends on the part of the country you race in. In Super Stock the only thing that decreases the odds is the GT, FSS and Modified classes added a lot more variety thus decreasing the likelihood of running another same class car.
Also getting a bye either 1st 2nd or later rounds is a nice option if you can get it.
Lastly, as a guy that used to Qualify at the bottom regularly, I can tell you that running a guy that is shooting to Qualify in the bottom of the top is not much fun first round.

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Some play the ladder, but most that do don’t have the car and hp to be number one.

I will say that because NHRA execs are no longer racers they don’t really understand how to support performance classes.

there are not as many incentives for racers to try and make their combos the best they can be.

On top of that, there are some combos that are so soft,the car can be really set up poorly and still look good on paper.

When you have cars that run well for what they are, they are efficient and well tuned, that is a satisfying moment even if not a number one qualifier.

My opinion is that everyone can have their own opinion. There is nothing wrong with having a goal to be number 1. That is not a bad thing in my view.

I do think the analysis would be interesting to see if there are any qualifying spots or ranges that equal more wins

. I would expect that if you analyze those racers that won the most races. Look to see where they qualified.

it might be that they qualify where they think it is best for them at thst race when they can.

Because very few can actually capture number one, it is naturally not going to produce the most wins.

I think if NHRA actually made qualifying meaningful instead of a participation award, the statistics would be different.

If a racer had to actually qualify to “make” the field, they would not be sandbagging or bring a car that was not prepared to have a shot to get in.

Maybe then , AHFS would work better for cars that are just ridiculous in terms if their low hp factors.

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Jim, They did that years ago, It was called class winner runs eliminator, the rest go home.

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Like MJ said earlier, if you didn`t have qualifying, you would have random pairing first round. After that , would you stay with random pairing to the finals, or would you do like the Super categories, where 1rst round is random, then laddered. And if so, would you base the ladder on quickest ETs, best reaction time, closest to the dial under, or some other criteria. For Stock & S/S, I think the present model serves the purpose, and allows the fat guys that want to show their hand, battle for the #1 spot, the strategists (try to) play the ladder position game, and everybody else, just have somebody in the other lane for round one. I have never qualified in the top 16, or contended for the "points chase", but I do like the idea of rewarding the top 3, 5, 10 or whatever qualifiers, some "little" points , which may cut back on some of the 1000 foot games and jockeying around on the ladder. JMO

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

I think the stats will show that most of the heavy hitters, ie Flecher,Santangelo, Lang etc.are very seldom if ever in the top half of the qualifying sheet, and we all know all too well where they usually end up!
Bill Taylor B/S 1005.

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Don't kid yourself though that they qualify based on performance. The ladder is the first move in the "chess" game. It is very clear in comp eliminator but those who don't think the ladder is manipulated for better odds are just not thinking like a champion.

Watch the Worner brothers qualify, usually in direct succession. If you think that is by chance or very easy to do... those 2 deserve to be world champs

Also, first round bye is good, but Bye-run Sunday morning is even better. Qualifying position is definitely played by the champs. Where is Bobby Fazio with his ladder book based on qualifying lmao!!

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Fred your right, nowadays qualifying doesn't mean to much other than to set the ladder and maybe get a bye run. The real question is would our class be more interesting and fun if qualifying did matter more?

The are lots of ways to incentivize qualifying. Here are a few ideas that I have seen tossed around:

1A). Points for qualifying. Minimum 17 qualified cars; same amount for Nationals and Divisionals. cars --> Top 5 qualifiers get 5 points, 4, 3, 2, and 1 point.
17-32 cars --> Top 3 qualifiers get 3 points, 2 points, and 1 point.
33-64 cars --> Top 4 qualifiers get 4 points, 3 points, 2 points, and 1 point.
65-128 cars --> Top 5 qualifiers get 5 points, 4, 3, 2, and 1 point.

1B) Points for setting a record. Maximum 2 records per year. 1st record --> 10 points, 2nd record --> 5 points

1C) Points for Class Eliminations 2 cars in Class --> 10 points
3-4 cars in Class --> 20 points, 10 RU
5-8 cars in Class --> 30 points, 20 RU, 10 Semi
9-16 cars in Class --> 40 points, 30 RU, 20 Semi, 10 C2
17-32 cars in Class--> 50 points, 40 RU, 30 Semi, 20 C3, 10 C2
You can only attain the qualifying and class bonus points at your claimed top 3 nationals and top 5 divisionals. They add to your total for that event. If you are claimed out or they are part of a “low point” event that is not counted then you don’t get those points. Points for setting records are always counted.

2). Higher qualified cars get lane choice. No more coins.

3). Grade Points: Qualifying points with a twist. The twist would be points are awarded to top ten qualifiers (10-1), ten cumulative qualifying points equals one grade point.

4) Top Qualifier award: a low qualifier award at each race for stock and super stock. It could be quite an honor to receive that award. A simple plaque recognizing the #1 qualifier would be enough for a lot of racers.

5) Qualified Fields at National Events: Allow an extra 10 cars over the quota to enter Stock and Superstock at National Events and only the top qualifiers within quota limit run the eliminator.

While many will not agree with incentivizing qualifying, I think a combination of a few of the above ideas could help the AHFS work properly and really appeal to performance oriented competitors.

Flame away, Darin Grossi

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

No flames here Darin , I like the way you think. Unfortunately , NHRA will not do anything that means more work for their already depleted staff. D-2 has low qualifier awards at their points meets sponsored by the Volkman family. I am sure you have seen the photos on here. A big SHOUTOUT to Michael, Emily , and Mattie Case Volkman. Perhaps you could find a sponsor out WEST ? Or one sponsor for stock and one sponsor for superstock? Back in the day IHRA gave the highest qualified car lane choice, no coin flip. I really like this idea but may too many ( ) racers would cry a river over this. It’s such an uphill battle to put the Performance back in stock / superstock racing. I would like to see every national event except Indy and the SPORTSnationals allow 85 cars to enter and qualify for 64 spots. 64 cars and no bye runs. Of course this would not work at Seattle and Sonoma. It’s unfortunate that this would not fly with NHRA because it doesn’t fit their business model, if they even have one ….LOL.

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

I know they could all qualify higher, what they're doing is part of the "chess" game as you said, and they're pretty durn good at it!

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

Why, why would anyone even bring this up….

I just don’t know why some people insist on poking the bear. The bear that affords us the opportunity to race our special, pricy, labor intensive cars/classes, which aren’t contested in anything resembling the traditional format in any other sanctioning body in the country.

Will you folks finally be happy if they just pull the plug on our classes?

We require a lot of work on their part. Scales, fuel check, ladders, tech, hp indexes, pairing. And then you all just whine and beat up on them more. At what point do they say, enough with these primadonnas and all that extra work.

I know a lot of you cherish the old days. But the old days also had you going home for the eliminator if you didn’t win class. It had you working on your stuff in a hotel parking lot at night because you couldn’t stay at the track.

Can we please just enjoy what we have, and understand we aren’t the only racers paying the entry fees? And that the real revenue that keeps our sanctioning body alive is the spectator admission revenue at national events? It’s extremely simple math to confirm that.

Kp

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

i wish they would ladder super gas up 1st rd. have us qualified and laddered up from the get go.

Re: Stock and Super Stock qualiying
 

When I raced in division one in the early 80s. It was random pairing first round. I surely can remember the game playing was part of first round planning. Qualifying is a race in itself. The double up events leave no chance to play during quaifying when the second race starts.One and go!

Paul