deep staging
 

does anybody know why deep staging in the sportsman classes is illegal? courtesy staging?

Re: deep staging
 

It's illegal because about 20 years ago, a few guys were winning regularly, deep. Jody, Toby, Donny Sabin, Scott Welborn.
A couple of cowboys decided to try to throw these off their game plan. They'd do a short burnout and rush up and stage and try to leave the D/S'er no time to stage.
Supposedly, NHRA put it to a vote and DEEP lost..
Problem there was the majority, who didn't go deep got to vote on something that was none of their business. On top of that, some guys right here on C/R got to mouth off, when they had no idea why the guys were going deep. They didn't understand the process at all.
Don't believe me ? Check the archives here.

Re: deep staging
 

One can still deep stage, but they have to do it while the tree is coming down.

The reaction timer starts when the stage beam is exited, not the pre stage beam. It takes practice.

There is also no rule saying at what angle you stage, perpendicular to the beams or extreme example of aiming toward or away from Christmas tree to get "excessive rollout".
Pro Tip. # 207

Re: deep staging
 

The same reason blinders were outlawed. There is a number of WHINEY azz CHICKEN chits among us…. The AGENDA is, “If I don’t do it, then NO ONE needs to do it” ……:):)

Re: deep staging
 

Sometimes it’s better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to speak and remove all doubt…:)

Re: deep staging
 

Hilarious. M.J. Quinn

Re: deep staging
 

Congrats, you know my name ….😃

Re: deep staging
 

My understanding and experience is if you roll
in deep enough to turn off the Pre-Stage Bulb
you immediately Red Light in our classes.

Re: deep staging
 

Yeah, for those that thought that eliminating deep staging would throw Jody Lang off his game, must certainly be disappointed!

Re: deep staging
 

What I didn’t like was Deep written on the window, it told the starter don’t do anything until the deep stager was ready to have the tree to start. The racers that did a quick burnout and staged quickly did they do anything wrong? Staging is like playing checkers.

Re: deep staging
 

Back in the 2000s looked into this for a way to make it fair simply becuase some cars cannot cut a light and to remove the game playing by some who were abusing holding the tree. I have never deep staged.

Called Compulink who told me with some additional programming to Autostart this could be taken care of. Add a D before your dial when race control puts it in with the D the staging lights will allow deep by the full stage light not coming on until the prestage beam closed. Opponent would see the same as if shallow. He did say the cost would have to be covered by the tracks and since need was limited did not think it worth doing. He would never return my calls afterword
To get some racers involved went to at the time the bracket racer favored message board created a post with the above info. Funny thing some of the well known deep stage racers who I raced with drove 10 second cars mostly trashed the concept. I remember one wrote I didn't understand deep. It appears I understood the advantage they were enjoying and did not want to give up..........
A few years ago had to race the local deep hero since I was not a regular other racers told me he would not light a lamp without his opponent fully staged so HIS process would not be interrupted. So the dep stage racer is not taking an advantage??



Later found that Port-a-Tree always had the option to accommodate deep but never used.

Re: deep staging
 

Ya know, I've gotta call B.S. on this because I've raced some awfully slow cars over the years and unless I've got super-human reflexes, I've never had a problem getting whatever it is I'm driving to get a light dead shallow.

Re: deep staging
 

Without changing your spot on the tree? C’mon Billy…

Re: deep staging
 

Turn off Autostart and usually not a problem.

Did they do something wrong? Besides acting in an un-sportsman-like manner, I guess not...

Re: deep staging
 

Jody, I'm not the natural driver that you are but I've got 3 "spots" that I'm somewhat comfortable with. Between them and making changes to the car, I can get it in the game. My biggest problem (other than old age) is when I start thinking.

Re: deep staging
 

Just like checkers they make a move I make a move according to the rules. Most go to the races to win within the rule’s structure. To my knowledge nobody did anything outside the rules.

Re: deep staging
 

Just my usual warped sense of thinking, but I contend that if you can't hit .020s or better most of the time, whether deep or shallow , you should probably work on your own program , rather than someone else's.

Re: deep staging
 

No argument here

Re: deep staging
 

I regularly deep stage my Corvette when bracket racing at my local tracks because the car does leave as hard as a real race car.
Here's away of looking at it in NHRA, why does super street have a .5 tree and all the other super classes have a .4 tree? NHRA took into consideration the minimum weight difference between the classes. So if you take a lower class car, it can't accelerate as fast as a upper class car, so deep staging would be a tool for making a level playing field.
Please no hate mail, it's how we race in south Florida. My buddy won the IHRA World championship in a1986 Cougar with a bone stock 302 that's been in the car for over 15 years, it usually goes 2.25 seconds to the 60' he puts on his window "XXX DEEP".

Casey Miles
248H Stock

Re: deep staging
 

Billy
With much respect: my statement about some cars not being able to hit the tree was what had been told several times, was an addition and a consolation to my effort hoping so those who needed to stage deep and a voice would join in and get it done. As stated the deepers did not like who was making the proposal...............................



BUT there is a fair solution: "Called Compulink who told me with some additional programming to Autostart this could be taken care of. Add a D before your dial when race control puts it in with the D the staging lights will allow deep by the full stage light not coming on until the prestage beam closed. Opponent would see the same as if shallow."


Deep stage racers want the tree held so they can take control of the race. If this was not the case they would have sought a fair solution.

Re: deep staging
 

Frank, I don't believe this is the case, for the most part.

Most just want a fair amount of time ..Same as the guy in the other lane, who does a lengthy burnout, then comes into pre-stage second, then puts it in neutral and cleans out the carb, two or three times, and then bumps it in ever so slowly...
This guy is protected by the system. The deep stager is not. Therefore he puts deep on the window, just in case the other racer does a rush job and puts the squeeze on him.

Now, in the Compulink example, the deep stager would be expecting extra time, and that wouldn't be fair.
Best thing would be to turn off the Autostart for S/SS. If a racer wants to rush up and put on two lights, or even knock off the pre-stage, and sit there, getting hot while his tires cool, that would be on him.
Most (notice I said most) racers have been doing this a long time, and are not going to play games. They're just going to go about their business and stage as usual.

Re: deep staging
 

Somewhat akin to being the last car to the lanes...

Re: deep staging
 

Going by the rules is always a good thing. If the rules don’t mention being last as an infraction it must be ok.

Re: deep staging
 

Mark
You want fair there is fair but no one wants to talk about it or make it happen. Deep would not be a discussion if racers wanted it fair.



"BUT there is a fair solution: "Called Compulink who told me with some additional programming to Autostart this could be taken care of. Add a D before your dial when race control puts it in with the D the staging lights will allow deep by the full stage light not coming on until the prestage beam closed. Opponent would see the same as if shallow.""

My conclusion through the years is most who deep stage do not want a fair method applied to Compulink. it already is programmed in other systems but no one has turned it on. There is a racer who goes deep in one motion pre to staged to deep but will not move until his opponent is fully staged. There you are shallow at 3500 waiting tell me this is not taking control of the race.......

Re: deep staging
 

Frank,

I did say "for the most part" and " racers want to be fair", etc.

Between my ex and myself, we've won quite a few local races while deep staging.
In the beginning, I had to ask her to hustle up and get in there sooner. Other guys are not going to like it and it will cause problems. Personally, I would usually get in deep before the other guy went to full stage.

There are always going to be a few bad actors , like there were in S/SS, 20 years ago.
My opinion is that a few shouldn't dictate policy for others, as far as with NHRA.
Meanwhile, the pro's are still allowed to go deep.

In about 1963 or so, the pre-stage bulb was put there as a courtesy to the racers.
To now use them for the blue light special, to disqualify someone, is not right. Again, my opinion.

Now on the Compulink "D" deal..They're not gonna do that. Next thing that might happen is the dial-in computer operator misses a "D", and the racer will demand a re-run, which he's not gonna get. NHRA always takes the easy way, whether it's fair or not.

Re: deep staging
 

Can I ask if I'm missing something here? Which can be the case from time to time. LOL



The way I look at it if he is going deep I'm not getting on the converter or moving until 3 lights are lit. 1 of mine and 2 of his. With that said they haven't allowed deepstaging in my area since I don't know when and I've never had to worry about it but I don't think it would be a big deal to me as long as they were made to inform the shallow car.

Re: deep staging
 

The suggestion to make it look correct is a good suggestion to bring back Deep. It'll never happen though. NHRA and Brockmeyer don't care.



Just so I'm clear, the process for the D racer in your suggestion would be roll in so both beams blocked would only light the prestage and unblock the beam closest to burn out box to show fully staged. Good idea.

I had something in mind years ago that adding a D would make it .600 second from last yellow to green allowing a slower car to react. The .600 is just an example. It could be less such as .550 . Just as long it's the same nationwide.


In both scenario's, one would have same amount to be fully staged before being timed out. No holding the tree regardless of who fully staged first.

They changed the tree for PSM years ago. It got changed back but NHRA changed the tree tree for a pro class. We know it was the one who changes their name every few years. Won't do it for their added income though. They'd rather racers spend more money to be competitive.

Part of the problem is many racers don't know how the tree/ timing system works.

I see that Portatree is being used at National event tracks. From what I understand, tracks are tired of 1980 technology based systems. ������
Maybe Accutime would be interested as well.

Doesn't matter much to me lately but something to discuss, approve or disagree.

FB/Et/Index Racer
Can't afford Class Racing. You all crazy!
Mark Mueller

Re: deep staging
 

so see if this sounds fair. just like at the divsion 7 et races. deep allowed. tree is not held. the opponet turns on his pre stage bulb, i come in turn on both bulbs, then we each have 10 seconds to finish staging. if my opponet turns on both bulbs it's my job to get in there if i can.

Re: deep staging
 

I actually spoke to Brockmeyer it could be done he against deep and NHRA will not demand this be fixed. Racers will not demand action we just want to bs on message boards.
The excuse race control may miss putting in the D would be the same as accepting an incorrect dial. There can be an indicator on the scoreboard next to the dial. This really is not tough to do.



With no solution put in play that removes the human factor and fair to all this conversation is moot. More racers may try deep if it was in the system. Deep=Dead

Re: deep staging
 

Yes
it's more than a suggestion Compulink can add it, Portatree already has it.

Re: deep staging
 

Frank, The reason it's dead is because you'll never get enough racers to support it. The majority have no interest. Many don't even understand it.
They're fine with their tacky sounding two steps.
NHRA doesn't care a wit about slow Stockers either. They've got their 8.30 "Stockers" out there with parachutes on the back. They'll go along with any fee increases.
The suits know that much...

Re: deep staging
 

As long as there is a courtesy pre stage and time out. Who cares. If I have to alter my staging for 3 out of 50. I guess those 3 need to alter theirs.

Paul

Re: deep staging
 

While on the subject of perceived advantages or disadvantages in the rules, let’s talk about the 170 lbs. driver. I’m my car drivers seat is an extra 130 lbs. The extra weight screws up the balance of the car: right side left side, front to rear. It’s totally an unfair advantage for someone that weighs 150 lbs. My solution is have 300 lbs in all the seats. If you weigh 200 lbs. you would have to add 100 lbs. weight under the seat to make it fair. To keep things fair the weight would have to placed no further rearward than the door post.

Sounds fair to me

Re: deep staging
 

Back in the old days, when I race my 64 Max Wedge A/SA
they did not include the drive when they weighed the car.
I was 280 and one of my competitors was maybr 120 dripping
wet (A whole class difference in weight). It annoyed the crap out
of ne so I went to the Gym and got all the way down to 170.
Then the rule box came out and they add 170 for a driver to
what car had to weigh and included driver in the car.

Probably did add 20 years to my life though.

Re: deep staging
 

Time to change baits Bob! They quit biting.