Ford 302 SS build
 

Happy Sunday all!

Doing a ton of homework and planing for my super stock 1970 mustang. I have a question in reguards to heads. I am a little confused because It shows that the AFR1399 heads are accepted replacements in the technical bulletins however not in the NHRA accepted replacements. Also in the rulebook it’s a little unclear as to if they are ok to use for super stock. Anyone have experience with this? I do have the matching D00E heads and block for the car and a roller 302 that I could use for GT class. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!
Chris

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Chris , The 1399 head is legal in superstock.They must meet published combustion chamber , intake and exhaust runner volumes
along with stock size valves for your engine.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Am I correct in assuming that your engine choice, for a 1970 Mustang, is the 302 2 barrel? Just seems to be a rather odd choice.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Yea I have some 302 blocks laying around the garage that I could use. Problem is I’m on the fence about it because of that reason. Considering going 428 route because of it.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

IMO the 70 2bbl 302 is rated a bit too high. Unfortunately to my knowledge there is only 1 year with a 4bbl 302 in which an automatic was offered, 1968. The 83-85 5.0 4bbl is stick only, and all of the 70s 2bbl 302s that are in the 130-140hp range would be impossible to even make GT/QA weight. There's a few racers running the 68 4bbl 302 in super stock. It's a good combo, but with aluminum heads it's even better.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Hmm ok thanks for the info! Would I be able to run a 390 in the GT class? Or no because the 390 wasn’t an option for the 70 mustang?

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

390 in SS/GT is very legal. Classification depends on selection of the 390 engine you have in mind.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

If you plan to run the AFR head in SS, get your checkbook out, the heads as delivered have too large of valves. You need to remove all of the seats and weld up the head so you can install the smaller seats to match the smaller valves, then report them to match, not a small or inexpensive undertaking.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

You can contact AFR and check if they will supply a “ porters casting” I think they rough in the ports and install the valve guides , possibly install the seats but i’m not sure.They did offer a head with the correct seats for the 289 combination, but that stopped a few years ago.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

The 68 302 iron head HP dropped to 207 hp and could be a great combo. 23 HP less than aluminum!

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Which carb comes on that combo?

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Depends on whether you call it a Ford or a Mercury 302. If run as a ford, it gets the 450cfm version of the motorcraft 4300 spread bore, air valve secondary carb. If called a Mercury, you are allowed to run a 600cfm 4150 holley.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Why is that and how is that? So I have the original 70 block and matching heads. So hypothetically even though it’s from a ford mustang and I run it in my mustang in GT/QA or PA and say it’s a “mercury” engine I could run a 4150? Who checks this by the way? Forgive me for all the questions I’m new!

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

You can run GT only if the comb is a hybrid. If the combo can legally be run in SS, you can't run GT. In my case, I am building a '64 Comet with the 289/210 combo. If I run the large Autolite Merc combo, it is a SS/MA. If I run the small Autolite Ford combo, it is a GT/QA. You can't swap between classes, the argument for this rule was that people were running GT with legal SS combos to avoid a potentially losing heads up runs.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

No worries, it's confusing to everyone. In "GT" you are allowed to run any engine combination from the "family." For example a 283 in a 4th gen F body, or a pontiac/olds/buick 455 in a camaro. To run a 68 302, you could use your block, but you'd have to find a set of heads for the 68 4bbl engine. Whether it's true or not, the paperwork exists that a Mercury 302 in 1968 was available with a Holley, whereas the Ford cars had the 4300 autolite. So, long story short, to answer your question, yes. You could run a 1968 4bbl 302 with a 4150 in your 1970 mustang in GT/QA or GT/PA.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

So I have a 89 roller 302 in the garage. If I run that block with a set of 68 302 heads I could run it in GT because it would be a hybrid? And I could claim it as the merc 68 302/220 combo with the 4150?

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Yes, you could use the piston that fits the 68 302 combo ( 4 valve reliefs), the 68 4V heads ( C80E-F) or the aluminum replacement head, which is the better head, and more cost effective. And as a Mercury that combo takes the Holley 600cfm 4150 carb.
The 390, 428, 351c, even 351w are good combos to research also. I dont think the 2bbl 302 is good for Super Stock, Matt Hawk has played with the 302 2bbl and the carb is just too small for the hp rating.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Mixing engine components does not make a hybrid. Using an engine by the same manufacturer that was not offered in your make-body is a hybrid.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Gotcha so if I run a 390 combo I could run in GT since the 390 wasn’t offered in the 70 mustang? What about a 68 302 then? I couldn’t run it in GT since the 302 was offered in the 70 mustang?

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Different year engine combo can run in GT.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Yes you can run the 68 302 in SS/GT. I think you want a J code 302.I believe that engine allows a holley four barrel.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Would I have to find a J code long block? Or could I just use a 68 block with the 70 heads? Or? Sorry all new to me!

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

No, you claim the engine as a j code and must adhere to the specifications for that engine. The people in tech check to make sure you’re legal, if they check.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Ok thanks for the clarification i appreciate it! I’m just torn between running a 302 or a 390. Car is already set up for 302 and I don’t really feel like going through the troubles for big block swap.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

You can't get the Edlebrock Aluminum heads for the 390 any more so that combination would be out for me. The iron 68 heads are hard to find, but it's a good combo. The aluminum head 302 is easy to source parts. 64 289 rated at 203 is a good combo also. Your going to buy rods and pistons anyway, getting a stock crank done (from Castillo Crankshaft service which is near you) at a reasonable price.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

There's a reason no one is running the 69/70 302 2bbl combo, the HP is 220, the carb is 1.08 venturi rated at 287 cfm, jmo I looked at doing this years ago and my math says you'd be lucky to run the index.. however the 68 302 rated at 207 with 68 cast iron heads, 4bbl Holley, GT SS is a much better choice..Brian Seaberg 627

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

64-65 352 4 bbl

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Castillo is in the process of retiring due to Health Issues.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

What 351w would be able to make any power? Even the rare D0 heads flow same/less than gt40P's. They barely support a 302 let alone 351 inches.

Reminds me when Ernie Elliot built a 327" for restrictor races and qualified WAY WAY quicker, so nascar made the "minimum cu in" ruling.

What secret am I missing where a top end that is barely enough to feed 300 cubes will run in a performance category with 50 more cubes?

Edit: On Stan's site I checked out the basic heads from ford/chev/dodge.

Mopar 051 head 1.88/1.60 (no idea if its good or bad)
50/49 113/97 165/123 188/123 193/137

Chev 462 1.94/1.50 (again no idea if this is a good head or not)
50/54 119/88 167/116 198/128 212/134

Ford E7 (as good as any and better than most stock ford heads) 1.78/1.45
52/39 95/74 132/98 143/104 159/109

To me, ford heads barely flow enough for 302's and once you see what 360's and 350's have for "base" heads, the 351W to me is way under headed.
Richard Holdener ran a stock junkyard 302 and got 259hp and a stock 351 got the same but at a lower rpm which to me says as cast, stock heads will flow enough to produce 260hp and that's it. (for a base to start from)

Am I reading something wrong??

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

I looked at the 69/70 351w combo because I have several mustangs, once again there's a reason no one that I know of is running this combo rated at 290 HP, I wanted to run it years ago because 69s are way cool but after doing the math I put it on hold, the rated HP is to high so I did a street bracket build instead..Brian Seaberg 627

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

We ran a 95 Cobra R back in the late 90's early 00's. It was 351W. Had the F3 GT40 heads. We ran in it F/S. Went high 10's. weighing 3300 lbs. rated at 300 HP. Wasn't a roller motor. We were surprised when we took it apart for the first time when we started to build it as a stocker.




Bret Velde
2003 I/SA

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

So that's 490-500hp....that's impressive for a non roller gt40 headed 351! (also the first 351w that I've seen make any power with "stock" heads, lol)

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

I am not sure of your formula for the 290hp, but my 302 cast iron head super stock engine with 1968 heads and stock size valves goes 10.70s in a 3100lb car.

When I talked about the 351w, I had said research it, not.build it. I haven't looked to see if anyone has had success with it. There are multiple options

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

The only accurate way to compare these heads would be to flow test them through the stock manifolds and take an average between the lower and upper ports. If the Ford mani is better than the Chevy mani there may be much less of a gap between them. The actual carb flow as tested on a flow bench tells a big story too as far as HP potential.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Research it, gotcha. To me at first glance it seems horrendous for hp potential, then looking on line to see examples of people making power with stock heads on a 351? Nobody does that, which again further convinced me it is not a good combo.

This was Richard Holdener on youtube making a base run on sbf's, same heads and cam pretty much and both made same power just at a lower rpm for the 351;
https://youtu.be/fuD6uudo9VY?si=zccgjTFyplBBTlXx

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

I had a 95 F150 with the 351W that I used to tow with. I think it was only rated at 210 HP then with EFI and was a non roller cam as well. It had 325# torque, but at 2800 rpm. It was a really good engine in that truck as far as pulling with a 1/2 ton 4x4. The Lightning trucks of the day had the GT40 heads I think, but I never drove one for comparison.
I also have the parts for a 69 290HP 351W, but feel its too high a factor to start out with in S/SS unless you really want to do it.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Mr Hoven! Big fan of your maverick! I was on the fence about doing a 68 302 your car being the inspiration! I have decided to run a 351c. A local guy has one for sale that’s a 70 block and heads that I’m going to run in my 70 coupe.. Still doing a ton of homework though as this is new to me! Thank you everyone for your responses and intel I highly appreciate it!

Thanks!
Chris

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

Which 351C combo are your referring to? Are you saying the local guy has a complete prepped SS motor or just the core engine? If it's a core, are they the correct head castings for the combo you want to run? Bear in mind the absolutely cheapest part of building a SS motor is going to be the engine core.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

The 70 351C 4 barrel engine is not a very good combination in Stock, and likely Super Stock either. The 70 engine is rated at a higher HP than the 71-72 351C 4 barrels, and have a considerably smaller camshaft, which isn`t an issue for S/S, but the carb issue certainly is. Where the 71-72 is allowed to use a Holley 780, the 70s stuck with the small (480ish cfm?) Autolite 4300.
So less cam, smaller carb, and at a higher HP rating, not very surprising that there are numerous 71 and 72 Mustangs with 351C running in Stock and Super Stock, and some 71/73 351Cs running in the SS GT classes, but I can`t recall anybody running the 1970 version, in a number of years.

Re: Ford 302 SS build
 

I confirmed it’s a 1972 248hp combo and it’s a core. The block casting is D0AE-L. Since that is the same casting number for the 70 and 71 blocks if I somehow found a set of 71 351c heads could I run it as a 71 since the block numbers are the same and do everything else to 71 spec? I’d run it in GT class.