index lowering
 

Just got a msg from my division rep. to vote on lower the stk/super stk index by .20.
I must be missing the point of this. Looking around the pits and in the staging lanes I find myself as many others in the "over 65 club". How can we expect " new blood" to fill our ranks? It is expensive to race, but we all love to do it. I myself would like to see us fill the classes of Stock and Super Stock continue. Thanks for listening.

Re: index lowering
 

you can't, won't happen. This is going to die, the only question that remains is when. My guess in 10-15 years you'll have less than half the class racers you do today. What little new blood interested in drag racing, are going bracket racing where at least they have a chance of winning money that will allow them to be more competitive. Further they don't have to deal with NHRA's rules nor take a week off of work to compete at a 3 day event where you spend most of that time doing no racing.

Re: index lowering
 

Is the AHFS criteria going to stay the same? Or is it going to be lowered also?

Re: index lowering
 

Our division 7 rep is polling at the Vegas race and the word is AHFS would stay the same.
Many agree that AHFS has hurt Stock & Super Stock, and that indexes have not kept pace with technology advances and and rules changes.
Lowering indexes will reduce the impact of AHFS. I think that's a good thing

Re: index lowering
 

1320, Some sanctioning body employees follow this forum. They do not need any help in deciding our future. If you have any negative things to
say about a class you, or anyone involved with you, wants to add to the
forum, I believe there is areas on this forum for you to participate in. We
have our own relationship with NHRA on these matters, and we don't require any outside consulting. Please keep your criticism to your own
areas of participation. Your mechanical observations amongst the Racer's
on this forum appear to be welcome. How the Classes of S/SS are run
and managed is best left to those racers. I will not require any additional
feedback about truth, opinions, or any other derogatory remarks. I am
simply asking for your positive remarks in regards to our classes

Thank You,

J.R.

Re: index lowering
 

I’ll continue to state my opinion where and when I choose, there is no requirement that anyone posting in this forum must be an active participant in Stock or Super Stock, if that were the case, many who reply here currently would not be permitted. No one except Ken will tell me otherwise. Now what part of the truth and the facts in my previous reply don’tt you like that you fear the NHRA will use to somehow impact stock and super stock racers? :rolleyes:

Re: index lowering
 

Fix the loopholes in the system first. Agree it needs work but lowered index doesn?t fix it. To me it?s only deferred .
I guess I?ll look at how many classes are below advertised Hp then make an observation.
And to be fair, some classes need help. I get that.
JMO

Re: index lowering
 

1320, I love Truth and Facts, when I hear them. Based on your level of
credibility on this and other forums, I'm not sure I am hearing them.
Now, unlike others on this forum, I won't engage in a battle of wits with
those that are under equipped. Now, what part of the Truth and Facts
don't you like.

J.R.

Re: index lowering
 

Pm sent

Re: index lowering
 

I still ain’t feeling the camaraderie!

With replies like this you’re part of the problem!

Re: index lowering
 

Lowering the indexes helps some and hurts others. There are a few new/beginning racers out there trying to get established. To keep them coming back and not getting discouraged, I say keep the indexes where they are.
I?d like to see a change in the AFHS rule, where the mineshaft rule is brought back. That at least makes the racing where the conditions are favorable, fun because you don?t have to kill the car so much it?s difficult to do and at least if someone goes fast it doesn?t kill the combo,
I?d like to see the GT classification rule applied to stock that allows cars that can safely, and legally move more than one class from the natural designation. That would allow some car that can get light or heavy enough to run a harder class, and not have to run so soft.

Re: index lowering
 

I'm sure many feel constrained by the AFHS rules and trying to manage a combo's horsepower and lowering indexes are a way to accommodate that. I don't necessarily see where this encourages more actual heads-up ...certainly less 1,000 foot or detuned qualifying, but doesn't really move the needle in the "spirit" of heads-up class races.

I'd rather see consideration for class consolidation (i.e. sticks and autos combined into 1, reduced weight breaks, etc.) if the goal is to encourage heads up racing. But if most racers really don't want this and it's more important to try and qualify better, than the index piece is a good solution for that. Just depends on what goal is trying to be accomplished.

As far as new blood, S/SS is a really tough sell to a younger crowd even though it's an awesome class (I'm 37 which puts me on the real "young" side of the curve). It's expensive, nuanced, sort-of-performance-but-not and really tough to win. I don't think lowering indexes helps draw more participation, but also don't think it matters much as 2 tenths are not keeping 50 new cars from being built...lot of other things would impact the challenging draw for younger people.

Re: index lowering
 

I don't think lowering the indexes solve the problem as stated I think it just discourages people from entering with a new combination. What would help is actually letting the AHFS do it's job. Every race that it could actually do some good at people are lobbying for those runs not to count is exactly why it hasn't done anything in the past couple years. Raising the automatic hit to 1.30 and extending the review period to the entire year has made it almost impossible for anyone to actually get the horsepower and for the system to get some of these combinations inline.
If the current rules were in place a few years ago my Stocker would still be at 245/263 instead of 245/281.
Ed 1320 I'll have to disagree with you on your 10-15 year prediction since everyone was saying the same thing 10-15 years ago and Stock and SS still remain the highest entries at division races and are the most difficult to enter National events.

Re: index lowering
 

Wow. What a Karen..did your old lady get a hold of your computer? Surely you are not this sensitive

Re: index lowering
 

El Douche is back again, aka imakehp aka Dave Kemblowski from DRR a pathetic old man that ain't ever done shyt on the track and no longer races, he had a reputation of being a hack with 1 reviewer referring to him as a "churlish slob" when he owned The Balance Shop in Cali and his only reason for posting on Class Racer is to bait me, having joined this forum on 1-14-24 with 16 of his current 17 posts commenting about me/my replies while he attempts to hide behind a computer screen, scared to own his comments. He's a self proclaimed billy badass that never got respect in the racing community and clearly was bullied in school with that last name.

Re: index lowering
 

More sensitivity?I guess men really can become female

Re: index lowering
 

You never will until you compete on the same level. Mind your own business.

Re: index lowering
 

In the late 1970s I aspired to compete is A/SA with Jerry Stein and David LeBrun in D1 and others like Dan Dvorak, Al Corda, Mark Wilson, Wes Leopold Jr. and surely failing to mention several great racers.
We did well, took our lumps and never complained, just listened and work hard to improve our program and we did it our own way.
But we competed against the best Ed and realized our dream that enabled me to have the ability to voice my opinion as one of them.
Unlike you. You are not a SS/ STK racer, Go away and compete are what you do best.
You are nothing more than a big mouthed wanna be.

Re: index lowering
 

Buy a Stocker or convert your beautiful Firebird back to Super Stock and let your talented son race among the best of this forum and prove you belong.

Re: index lowering
 

Oh by the way I want this to succeed for you.

Re: index lowering
 

This year at Indy we had 125 stockers and 80 SS that ran .850 under or faster we were there most runs in qualifying had a corr factor 1.080 to 1.095 so obviously all of these cars are capable of going a second under in decent air leave sea level tracks out of the convention. So so basically with the AHFS rules are we are saying that all these combos need hp especially if we are saying .850 under is the number. We have stock and ss combos that have been factored for 55 years that can still go over a second under . The indexes have not been adjusted since 2009 or 2010 I believe a lot of rules have been changed and better valve train technology everyone that is working on their stuff is faster . So in the end do to want to work on your stuff just to get hp and slow it down or do you really want to work to go faster and set higher goals for yourself? I choose going faster. This is still a performance based class and should stay that way.

Re: index lowering
 

There is a lot of young racers out there, I tested at Flying H and when i told a kid with a low 10 second hellcat with plates on it, I run 11.20 in Stock Eliminator he didn't have a clue what I was talking about, I told him I could build a 9 second car cheaper then my stocker and he was confused. These young racers like adders and speed and instant gratification.

Re: index lowering
 

The new valve train technology was a huge benefit for cars that had poor valve trains from the factory and nowhere near as much for those that had good valve trains from the factory, same story for blocks and then add all the combos that don't have the option of available or accepted parts that some do, and some people want to lower the indexes for those who had the gifts and the heck with anyone else.

Re: index lowering
 

Just got a text?
Hearing proposed indexes;
3 tenths stock
2 tenths Superstock

Re: index lowering
 

I think this idea will cause more people to get out of class racing. A lot of cars/ people that are at bottom of the qualifying sheets may not be able to afford to step up their programs. Its not cheap to go fast. Even to .50 under can be tough.

Re: index lowering
 

"In the end do you want to work on your stuff just to get hp and slow it down or do you really want to work to go faster and set higher goals for yourself? I choose going faster. This is still a performance based class and should stay that way."

Well stated Mr. Dona

For those concerned about less favorable combinations, there is a mechanism within AHFS to help make those combinations more competitive and more will qualify for that help if indexes are lowered.
Currently, more combinations qualify for hits than help, which is a clear indication the indexes need downward adjustment.

Re: index lowering
 

Where is this polling being done so I can go vote no for a million personal reasons I just spent an hour listing here only to lose the posting due to a disconnection as I am still sitting here in my car in the pits at The Strip in Las Vegas at the last DIV 7 LODRS race of 2024 still flogging in the sun all day after I went out 1st rnd today (and will again all day tomorrow as long as they still let me after they hear my reasons), creating & installing some of that latest and greatest "hope to go faster" technology (and maybe the lord willing and the Holley EFI God's bless me maybe, so I wont be a bottom or near bottom of the field qualifyer soon), improves that cost a mint and takes a lot of labor because
nobody makes an off the shelf kit for my ancient 1984 rudimentary EFI combo! And maybe, just maybe for once I will not qualify at or near the bottom of the field and catch up to some of the others.


Hit the ones that have earned it if they wish to lower their indexes, but don't lower everyone's and especially those that have not earned the performance hit.

I am already, unearned by me at least,
and nobody has yet explained why even when asked personally or in writing
more than once why my particular
combo (only I have ever raced the 1984
Dodge Daytona 2.2L 135 C.I. Single
point TBI edition in NHRA Stock Elim. Competition), yet am penalized and
factored 6 HP (done in June 2003 for unknown reasons), or over 6 percent at
99/105 @25 lbs. Per HP for a total of a 150 lb. Penalty in extra wt. carried.

Most others in our minority I do know
handful of slow FWD Stockers across the country already weigh from 100-500 lbs. less than my required min. wt. of
2,795 lbs. that I am trying to haul down the 1,320 as fast as I can go with about
a 1 cu. ft. block of cast iron I already
invested some decent money in for its size.

And for no real performance shown
reasons or due to a poll some wish to
make life harder for everyone. Under 1.30 passes should earn getting hit. But, if you have not shown those kind of E.T.'s yet, please leave the rest of us
alone (and out of the equation until we do earn the hit), so eventually maybe we
too can join you at Indy soon! (Or maybe even up in the middle of the field someday soon possibly).

Yes, even at 67 yrs. of age that is my
goal too. (Both of them).

But price us out of the market by across the board index lowering for
zero actual performance reasons and gone like the wind some of us will be.

Please poll everyone, and do not do it on Fakebook please (as not everyone uses it, mine personally is for business reasons), as it should be an official NHRA communication (our e-mail addresses are on every current and most recent Tech Card we filed for this currently running LODRS event as are our phone numbers for our mobile phones currently in our hands, or maybe cruise the pits a little and ask us our opinions face-to-face, or
even possibly call a meeting since we
are here at the same facility.

Tell me I am currently flogging for no reason on my combo today/tomorrow,
actually for weeks/months on end (to
get just prepared to add a Holley
Terminator X to my ancient rudimentary factory EFI combo) just to take 2 steps
forward and 20 steps back at the same time if you hit me w/ a 2/10th's index lowering, and I will give you the reasons
(and they are many), why not personally please.

Thanks!

Re: index lowering
 

[QUOTE
For those concerned about less favorable combinations, there is a mechanism within AHFS to help make those combinations more competitive and more will qualify for that help if indexes are lowered.
Currently, more combinations qualify for hits than help, which is a clear indication the indexes need downward adjustment.[/QUOTE]

A combination that is so weak that never makes the lower AHFS trigger will never have an index changed or HP factor changed (except by request).
Lowering the indexes will make the poor combinations disappear into race car oblivion. Sure all the fast guys are all for the index changes. They keep on racing and running fast and the poor low buck guy(who could be a good shoe polish driver with a poor combination) disappears From class racing. Be careful because sometimes there are other unintended consequences that are never considered. Just let the AHFS work & don't penalize a lot of racers just because a few are smart enough to "Work" the system.

Re: index lowering
 

It means their indexes need adjustment, not all class indexes. Who received a text? I paid my dues, I paid my entry fees, am at the track now, and still in the pits currently...I have received no texts and my phone/text number is on the tech card that was electronically submitted to NHRA for this LODRS event.

I will ck. My email next. That address is also listed on that same Tech Card.

Or are only certain fast guys participating or invited to participate in such a poll? All memberships are equal, we all pay the same price to join/ be a member, and same price to compete.

It is performance based. That is why there is an AHFS. You earn the hit, or are afraid to earn the HP hit, that is a choice each faces alone. If I earn it I will take it willingly...until then, that is my choice, and believe it or not...it is my short term goal, but I have far to achieve that goal, but those are my goals, with my car...Please leave me to accomplish them in my time only and within my budget.

The Stock Category and Classes are not dying...There are well over 500 stockers out there across the country actively running in 2024 just look at the current National Standings/points chase listing of points (contrary to 1320 posts)...Don't kill it by blanket lowering indexes willy/nilly 3 tenths please.

Please add my no vote to any poll Matt.

Thanks,

Gary Lucier.

Re: index lowering
 

Well then THAT mechanism will need to be changed too! As it stands right now, it will take 4 years to get 2 tenths worth of HP back. The "valvetrain enhancements" just slow down a lower HP combo. What about some of the older combos which were arbitrarily given HP before even going to the track? How about NHRA does what it did with the 302/2V FFFord combos? Any non or no longer competitive combo which has never been "hit" with HP goes back to it's original Manufacturers HP rating???

Re: index lowering
 

Fast guys gonna and want to go fast. In all classes. The best solution is not to kill the rest of the category. Leave me my shoe polish and leave me alone, as I am not your problem or issue. The faster the guy is in the other lane the more my juices are flowing as you look like a rocket/missle/and bullet all rolled into 1 as we start dancing together at the stripe. It is what excites me most as I have certainly "Embraced the Slow" along with your Fast!

Your issue is with the AHFS period...So, ask instead that the AHFS trigger point be raised thst 3 tenths. Then it benefits all classes in the category for all that go really fast. And it hurts nobody.

Lobby instead the trigger point be 1.60 instead of 1.30. Issue resolved until and except for the 2 second under gang.

And if you are running that fast it should be in Super Stock anyway. Lol.

Re: index lowering
 

This is a little more complicated than a yes or no broad brush ruling. It would need to be looked at closely and probably have some statistical analysis to go behind it. Stk & SS will show different numbers of course. Some classes have sticks and autos where the auto gets a generous break. I'll use my SS/L index 11.25 as an example while SS/LA is 11.45. Some classes have the same index for both. L/SA and L/S are both 12.70 after a small .05 jump from K/SA while the jump from J/SA to K/SA is .20. Going down the alphabet, sometimes the jump is .15-.20ish and then it's .05 or .10 so some indexes don't really make sense either. Draginsights Analytics tab shows the quickest runs made in each class since 2015.

Re: index lowering
 

But Frank, it`s not his talented son out here constantly beating his chest about the successes he has had, it`s the father, that I imagine pays the bills, but has never actually accomplished much himself, let alone all the wins, Wallys and championships HE is always bragging about. If you type Ed Bigley in Drag Race Central, about all I have ever seen is maybe a couple of round wins at Bracket Finals races years ago.

Re: index lowering
 

Leave the indexes alone
Bring Back?..:: Mineshaft
When the weathers good
Everyone Goes Fast

Re: index lowering
 

The AHFS would work better if NHRA would follow its own rules on Horsepower reduction. When a combination qualifies for a horsepower reduction it is based on a years worth of performance. All of the T's have been crossed and the I's have been dotted and it 100% satisfies all of the requirements for HP reduction and then This happens:

The decision to adjust horsepower or to increase the index will be at the discretion of the AHFS Committee.

A years worth of effort and playing by the rules goes down the drain. From my experience it will help make a ''Dog'' a little more competitive. The car won't be able to win a heads up run with the fast car but they can?t be real late.

After you move up on the qualifying sheet and start feeling better about your combination it starts: I wonder if I changed this how much would it help?

So what is the best combination for most of us? A fast car with an average driver or great driver in an average car?

Re: index lowering
 

Our current system seems to have contradictions in it. If your average is above -.85 and you have 2 runs over -1.00, you're going too fast, and you
will be slowed down as you will be penalized with extra HP, which will
equate to adding weight. So, if you can -.85, and maybe get 2 hits in
mineshaft conditions, you're penalized. So, how fast do you have to go
to get instantly penalized? -1.30!! That is .45 faster that the average the
system thinks is too fast. Almost a 1/2 second variation, doesn't make
good common sense. The program needs to be tightened up, and made
easier on the investors(Racers). We need to quit penalizing hard work and have our racers walking on eggshells. The average after 2 hits should be
raised to -.1.00, the automatic hit lowered back to -1.20, and all cars are
AHFS exempt in A) Class runoffs, B) all Sportsnational type of races,
and C) Indy. S/SS are supposed to be performance classes, let us showcase our hard work and investment more often. Leave the indexes alone, it only hurts the people trying to enjoy their sport on a budget.

J.R.

Re: index lowering
 

Jim, the text I received from a fellow racer was letting me know what was being discussed at the track . To my knowledge no texts were sent out regarding indexes..

M

Re: index lowering
 

I'd like to see only a .10 off index and mine shaft conditions. Kind of the best for both worlds. BP

PLEASE DO SOMETHING to bring back some performance.

Re: index lowering
 

----------
Clarity helps at 11:00 PM you mention Div. Reps to me that is an official and that to meant Matt was conducting a poll. If you are talking about the Rules Committee I know where to find their info for contact when I get home because as I am done thrashing here at the track until this all blows over and is decided since I know I cannot just magically find horsepower and buy more and through a lot of hard work I have to manufacture it myself with this under powered tiny tot. NHRA started my mission in 1993 at 110, dropped me back after a review to factory in Spring of 1996 to a diet goal I had no clue at the time to reach (it took 25 years of research and a whole lot of rules changes in the book finally open to me to get it...the weight off and moved into the right places to perform crappy at altitude and quite ok at sea level ...still not stellar but I cannot race at sea level much.

The O.P. wast texted by Div. Rep., 2nd poster said Div. 7 Rep. (my bad gentlemen I assumed that was Matt).

Div. Reps are officials please use names since their positions are official as this is an Association we all are members of so the rest of us also are or can be included in the conversation and same for any polling by using official channels as that is critical. It is just nice to know who to lobby and whose wheels need greasing or is about to be greased, and who's is about to get locked up tight as a drum.

As he is only polling certain people as I have been out here since Tuesday evening and I am not that hard to find. I have a lot of history not on index dropping but HP additions and it is all the same in the end the HP/weight carried. Someone wants to instantly send me back to 1993 and my very 1st pass in the car, I will get vocal.

Or I'll lay down, die and come back to specifically haunt everyone who had a hand in ruining my golden years.

If the issue is the AHFS go after that so it is solved fairly from top down for every class in the categories.

Data isn't just recent, the data is historical and goes back a lot further Bobby. And one thing NHRA has is mountains of historical data...They know the answers, sometimes they do not like sharing it though. Sometimes it is embarrassing and you know how they feel about lawsuit threats (or even the thought of the possibility in our overly used litigation world), even though all members agree and are prohibited from filing any, and we all know where to find
that info as it is in that golden book we all have access to.

Re: index lowering
 

For me this is a horrible idea and would effectively end my days trying to support the class. Ive spent 1000s of dollars (on a shoe string budget) just to try to just and run the damn ss index in the heat. If you wanna keep these classes going and attract new younger racers this isnt the way.

Why in the world would any racer in their 20s-40s spend 10x the money to run stock or ss when they can just put a delay box and throttle stop on the car..

FIX THE SYSTEM! AFHS system needs to use 1/8 mile data, have a mineshaft rule & a hard trigger! Hit the Trigger, Tear down and HP.

lowering the indexes just puts a bandaid on a bigger problem.