Combine sticks & automatics

[Bobby Zlatkin]

Oh boy, here we go again. Opening that same can of worms again. But, let me try opening the can from the other end. Let's look at it from a different prospective.

Do we agree that with the fewer classes we have, the more exciting / fun / intertesting eliminations would be? Wouldn't this make stock elim. more of a performance orientated class and less of just a bracket race?

I'm not familar with every combination. Just my own. The '73-'80 Chevy 350 in stock elim. However, I believe there must be other situations that are similar.

HP factor with automatic 287
HP factor with stick 275

H/SA index 12.45
H/S index 12.30

Difference in index 0.15

Difference in weight 138 lbs.

Doesn't that kind of equal out? So why have them in different classes?

Not right to run sticks and automatics together in class?
Why not, we do it in the Eliminator?

[Bruce Noland]

You're talking about IHRA...right?

[Bobby Zlatkin]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

You're talking about IHRA...right?

No, why would this be applicable only to IHRA?

What am I missing?

[Jeff Lee]

I'm all for it. However, first issue is the spread between indexes (auto to stick) need to be eliminated. In the example below, why should there be a .015 difference just on the index?
I know Rob Youngblood who races SS/J has a .200 difference to SS/JA. As an example, he races Don Little in SS/J vs SS/JA and the HP rating is the same between the SS/J 350 'Vette and the SS/JA 383 Challenger. Same HP, same class, same weight. If they both run a 10.00, the SS/JA car qualifies .200 higher on the ladder. Does that seem reasonable?
I can agree on different HP factors but if it was an issue, I'd say OK, let them all be equal; equal HP, equal weight and equal index.
And just like Booby said, less classes and more excitement. It would be good for the spectators as you would see some real battles being played for them.

[Sean Cour]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

I'm all for it. However, first issue is the spread between indexes (auto to stick) need to be eliminated. In the example below, why should there be a .015 difference just on the index?
I know Rob Youngblood who races SS/J has a .200 difference to SS/JA. As an example, he races Don Little in SS/J vs SS/JA and the HP rating is the same between the SS/J 350 'Vette and the SS/JA 383 Challenger. Same HP, same class, same weight. If they both run a 10.00, the SS/JA car qualifies .200 higher on the ladder. Does that seem reasonable?
I can agree on different HP factors but if it was an issue, I'd say OK, let them all be equal; equal HP, equal weight and equal index.
And just like Booby said, less classes and more excitement. It would be good for the spectators as you would see some real battles being played for them.

Sounds Great!

Make all the indexes run off the stick ones. Who cares where you qualify. More headsup runs, woo hoo!

Sean

[Bruce Noland]

Bobby,

You failed to mention a sanctioning body and I believe you race mostly or exclusively with IHRA.

[Bobby Zlatkin]

Jeff,

First of all, forget spectators. Except for the US Natls. there really aren't any except our friends, family members and a few hard core individuals. If stock or super stock elim. could be considered a spectator sport to more than just a few hard core, we'd be watching that on ESPN2 instead of the same John Force ranting and raving interviews over and over.

I know it used to be believed that all else equal, a stick would outrun an automatic. But with all the advances in transmission and torque converter technowledgy, this my no longer be true.

My senario kind of proves this out. The stick has a 0.15 quicker index but the automatic has to carry 138 lbs. more. Doesn't that show both cars with the same potential?

[JRyan]

Let me start off by saying I run both auto's and sticks so I think I have a fair idea as to what both are capable of. You cannot combine sticks and autos in every case. It's just not feasable. We have two of the fastest SS/MA-NA cars in the country. We just ran within a .01 of the MA record this past weekend. However, I can guarantee that we cannot run with say Terry Johnsons 302 Ford and Terry's combo has more left in it. How about SS/L. I don't anyone can compete with Kip Martins Ford. Granted these are some of the best stick cars in the country, but they show what can be done with the sticks.
In Stock there is a little more balance as a whole so combining the two could possibly work for the most part.
In my opinion change the weight breaks from .5lb to .75 until you reach the 1.lb classes. I know a lot of people say 1.lb breaks but in the upper classes you'd be asking people to add or remove close to 400lbs to move one class and that may be asking too much. Whatever change is made if any, won't make a lot of difference unless something is done with AHFS. Even if you have more heads up runs some will treat it just like Comp to do what they can to save their combo. Again these are my opinions and maybe they are wrong. This coming from a guy building another stick car.

Rick Ryan

[Stevie Ficacci]

as long as sticks and autos get factored separately, they should combined. It will work itself out in the end.

[Mike Coe]

The one complaint I have is, an automatic can run radial tires worth twelve hundreths, stick cars can't. So if the horsepower and indexes are the same, the automatic has the advantage every time.