This is what's wrong with the AHFS.

[Greg Hill]

After reading everyone's post on the AHFS thread I started thinking about some things. I know that this is probably dangerous, but here goes. To examine the flaws of this program one needs only to look at the recent horsepower adjustments and the class race at Indy in K/SA. In the final of class Jimmy Harrison had to run Johnny Fisher. Jimmy has a very fast Chevy II with a 283 and a powerglide and Johnny has avery fast Mopar. If memory serves me right Jimmy had to go more than 1.15 under in the first round of class and Johnny didn't. In the final I think Jimmy went 1.2 something under and Johnny went 1.3 something under and was letting off. He almost got automatic horsepower. When you look at the horsepower adjustments in the latest batch you will notice that the 283 got horsepower and the 360 mopar didn't. So next year if they race each other again Jimmy falls farther behind.

There needs to be some common sense involved in this process. Someone should have looked at this and realized what was going on. There have been other instances of a similar nature in the past. Counting all runs at National events would help with this disparity but there also needs to be some human element factored into this process. The AHFS should not be about who can manipulate the system the best but about fairly assigning horsepower to the different combinations that need it. I also realize that no one ever think their combination needs horsepower.

What about this? A horsepower committee made up of some tech people along with some racers. My idea would be to have a number of super stock racers on the stock committee and stock racers on the super stock committee, this should keep people from just thinking about themselves.

Also please don't any of you take this personally. I only used the above example because it was recent enough for me to remember.

Greg

[Jim Kaekel]

Greg: You make some very valid points. A lot of it is just plain common sense, like you've stated. Hey, what class is your son's car going to run in? Not another darn E/SA?
P.S. You've got flames on you're car...you should be used to getting flamed.

[JIM MARSHALL]

Greg that is a great example. When the AHFS were using body specific only the problem started. In a Mirada the 360 is 270Hp in an Aspen it is 289Hp common sense would tell you the horsepower potential should be 289Hp in both cars. The same thing happened to the 305 dish piston motor, in a Malibu there 230Hp in a Camaro there 249Hp. I've been looking through the guide on the NHRA web site and it looks like the L-48 Chevy is rated at 283Hp in all body styles 73-81 how does that make sense by looking at my examples above. Something is broken and needs to be fixed.

Jim

[Michael Beard]

I believe that the horsepower rating for a given engine combination should be the same for all body styles, except in the case of a body style that has a functional fresh air system.

If you start taking body styles into account for aerodynamics, then you must also consider weight distribution, suspension setups, ad infinitum.

[Evan Smith]

Good point Greg. Ironically, if they would have raced during the eliminator both runs would count. This is why all runs should count.

[Lynn A McCarty]

Originally Posted by GP Hill

Also please don't any of you take this personally. I only used the above example because it was recent enough for me to remember.Greg

The only thing that saves the invalid statistical method of the AHFS is the people manually making corrections. The AHFS needs to be compared to the average SSer not to an average of 1.15 under.

Ed, It is impossible for them to count all the runs because they dont correct to 29.92, 60 degF, dry air. If they correected all runs, then they could use it, just another statistical impropriety.

Lynn

[bsa633]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

I believe that the horsepower rating for a given engine combination should be the same for all body styles, except in the case of a body style that has a functional fresh air system.

If you start taking body styles into account for aerodynamics, then you must also consider weight distribution, suspension setups, ad infinitum.

example body specific...or wait..it's even the same body : Ls1 auto 364hp.. Ls1 stick 342hp,...just plain stupid system..racers that dont work or try to run fast dont get hp when others do!

[Chuck Beach]

Everyone has great ideas on this subject and it has been discussed over and over again on this forum and the other forum. But there will never be a good and satisfactory method for the following reasons:

1) we don't all go to the same machine shop
2) we don't all run the same combination
3) we don't all run the same brand
4) we don't all have equal OEM 'replacement parts' (heads, blocks, etc.)
5) we don't all spend the same amount of money
6) we don't all put the same time and effort into our combo
7) we don't all race at the same races where the conditions could be mind shaft or really bad
8) we don't all run our race cars on kill all the time nor do we want to because of the wear and tear, so it only makes sense to back them down if no heads up are involved
9) we don't all race the same number of races each year, so the data is not consistant
10) there are not the same number of cars that make up each combo, some have 2 or 3 cars (ie. 340) while others have 50 or more (ie. 305's)
11) we don't all own our own machine shops

So with this in mind are we trying to

1) create a socialist class (everyone is the same regardless of time, money and effort)
2) penalize the racers that work hard, spend the time and money to be the best
3) throw out what this class was built on ..... PERFORMANCE

I know there are obvious combos that are under rated and there are some over rated and that is what NHRA is trying to even out with AFHS, but I don't know if there will ever be common ground to resolve all of the HP ratings.

Greg, another guy you could throw in there was Mitch Kight, he did a great job of protecting his HP factor. And we could talk about guys that are innovative and work hard, one that comes to mind is Don Holmes, that guy got tons of HP on his combo but still managed to be #1 qualifier at many Div 3 events over the years.

Jim, I know what you are saying about the same engine combo in different cars, not everyone thinks some cars are worth racing but some guys do to take advantage of the combo. The 90-91 Corvette is basically an LT1 with a little bit different intake and it is only at 283 HP ..

Just my 2 cents ...

[Charley Downing]

Jim so you think a malibu wgn will run the same ET as a corvette if they both have the same motor and are at the same weight? I think not, air flow might be a factor in this case. You have been spending way to much time talking with the rev. To everyone else HP gifts are a part of stock and superstock if you don't like it, then one stop racing in one of these to classes or live with it. I received four hp eariler this year and did I get on here and cry about how AHFS is not fair even though the class I run has a average was only 85 under and how Bob Gear is still faster then me, no I just when back to the engine shop put in long hours and got out the pocket book. As far johnny fisher I give him all the creidt in the world he spends good money to run as fast as he does and he plays his cards right. The way I feel is if there is a better combo then yours just bulid it that sloves everything. We all have the right to built what ever we want. This is when makes stock and superstock so special. There is no good way to enforce any HP system because different systems have different flaws.

Jim call my cell I wanted to talk to you about some things but lost you number. thanks Chuck D

[herbjr]

Johnny glad to see your still alive, haen't seen you since Roxboro but I think its good they are talking about you. I have that Dana for your Challenger going in my Duster next week.


Herb Jr