Are you required to have DOT numbers on your tow rig???

[SS70ElCaminoOwner]

Ok guys, do you run DOT numbers on your tow rigs when hauling your cars?

I have just spent six hours talking with both state and federal DOT departments. They all agree that this is a gray area. Their feeling is if you are going to car shows where you can win a prize, you are towing for compensation, I know it is stupid but that was a consistent answer I got, try asking them yourself.

If you answer the questions on this link http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registratio...escription.htm Private, not for money, over 10,000 pounds Gross Vehicle weight (truck 6350, trailer 4,500, show car 3,600 the answer they come up with is yes you need a DOT number

I drove truck for many years, this did not make sense to me (DOT also requires such things as a log book, and all the safety equipment.)

I did find this on the federal site,
Question 21: Does the exemption in ?390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?
Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.


I called and questioned the FMCSA and they said this is a valid interpretation but road side inspectors may still issue a ticket (yes you are required to stop at the truck inspection stops/weigh stations) and you will have to fight it in court.

On top of that State DOT may have a different interpretation. NY wants you to get a NYSDOT number if you stay in the state.

So what I am going to do is/have done is apply for a USDOT number (does not cost anything and can be done online at the link above) Put it on a magnetic sign and display it as required when pulling the trailer. I will not keep a logbook and if issued a ticket for that will fight it in court.

I am also going to carry copies of this and the information I picked up on the state DOT site in the truck with me.

WHAT A PAIN

By the way I am not talking about a large set up see this link for pictures of what I am talking about. http://www.leverfamilysite.com/2003_...go_Trailer.htm If you are hauling a car in or on a trailer this applies to you.

[G Schenck]

Laws differ from state to state. Fla. has been coming down on tow rigs, but it is most over length. Most racers with big rigs put NOT FOR HIRE on the truck. Towing a race car to the races is not for profit unless you are towing someone else's car for a fee. The truck needs to make the money in my opinion, but if you find the wrong officer he can darken the gray areas.

We have travel from New Orleans to Houston(twice), St. Louis, Topeka, Dallas(twice), Indy, Atlanta, and several points races each year for several years with a 75 foot rig with no problems.

Greg

[M S Watchdog]

You are wrong If the units truck and trailer then there is no way around it. If car or trailer is lettered you don't have much to stand its not what the state says BUT the feds section 391.2 of Fed Stands says it all. Private Carrier only meads you are carring your own goods not someone else.. Motorhome means nothing eitjher if it is a bussiness name then required to hve DOT # if in a private name you or your wifes you MIGHT get by.

[Chris Schafer]

Jeff Tueton had a post last year that addressed this. I believe he quoted a section from the DOT and basically concluded that there are some exclusions for sportsman or hobbiest so long as you are not sponsored or operate the racing operation as a business. Hopefully he'll be kind enough to respond with a recap his previous comments with the relevant sections of the DOT code.

Thanks,
Chris.

[M S Watchdog]

FLORIDA D.O.T. RACE RIG ENFORCEMENTS | Print |
Written by Robert Bravender
Thursday, 11 October 2007


As drag racers in the eastern U.S. prepare to head down to Florida to finish off the season, they might do well to bear this in mind: the Florida DOT is intent on enforcing section 390 of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations. While most race rigs probably already comply with this national statute regarding commercial vehicles, a few circle track racers were caught unawares a couple months back.

As reported in the August 22 issue of National Speed Sport News by NSSN staff writer John Clayton, a group of racers traveling through Florida turned around and went home, apparently facing heavy fines for not being in compliance with commercial vehicle requirements.

According to Keith Johnson, director of the American Sprint Car Series Coastal Region, this action nearly killed attendance for his event at Southern Raceway in Milton, FL.

?It had something to do with the length of the trailer behind the axles,? Johnson reported, ?the (graphics) on the trailers, if you had any kind of sponsors on the trailers?You had to have a CDL (commercial driver licenses) whether it was their motorhome type or not? I cancelled my race there for next year; I?m not going to go back.?

The regulations, which are federal and not state, defines a commercial motor vehicle as ?any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property??

?When we?re talking about commercial vehicles, we?re talking a combination with over 10,000 pound (gross) weight rating,? explained Lt. Jeff Frost, Public Information Officer, Florida DOT Motor Carrier Compliance Office. He points out that even a pickup hauling a big trailer could be considered commercial under this criteria, and have to meet the same requirements as a tractor-trailer.

?They require a CDL, they have to do drug testing, they have to have a DOT number,? Lt. Frost outlined. ?So yeah, a pickup truck pulling a goose-neck trailer would be required to pull into the scales.?

Are there exceptions? In a section entitled ?Interpretation for Part 390: General,? the guidelines are spelled out:

Question 21: Does the exemption in ?390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

The point of contention is ?corporate sponsorship.? Should your combined gross vehicle weight exceed 10,000 pounds and you?ve got sponsor decals on your trailer or the race car inside the trailer, that?s considered corporate sponsorship and thus isn?t exempt

Frost further explained that ?toterhomes,? RVs built on heavy duty truck or tractor chassis?s, are generally perceived as commercial vehicles by Florida law enforcement, ?particularly when you put a big race trailer behind it,? he added. ?It?s obvious that it?s not someone just going camping?.So it?s not necessarily that it?s a ?toterhome,? it?s what you?re doing with whatever vehicle you?re pulling.

?If it appears like that,? he continued, ?one of our officers may see it going by the scales and think it?s something other than strictly an RV, stop it, and then they?re going to ask questions. If someone has any doubt, I would say pull into the weigh station, because you?re never going to get a citation for pulling into the weight station because you didn?t have to.?

Lt. Frost also said should a person owning a business, say a construction company, and they put their toterhome or RV in the construction company?s name, that would also designate the rig as a commercial vehicle and thus subject to regulation.

Is Florida?s enforcement of this regulation new? Not according to Lt. Frost. ?If you come into a (FL) weigh station and you?re not in compliance, we?re going to take the enforcement action. I believe (what happened in August) was that some people were issued citations and so forth for various violations. And then the word spread that ?hey, if you?re coming into Florida, I was stopped and told I had to have a DOT number, commercial drivers license?--whatever? It wasn?t like we were out there turning them around in the middle of the road, or they got there and we said ?if you come past this point you have to have this.? We?re not a point-of-entry state.?

If you have any questions about compliance, you may want to refer to http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rulesregulations/, particularly Section 390.

[Jeff Lee]

It's nice to know Florida takes a tough stance on enforcing federal law. Now if they could just do the same with enforcing their borders from illeagle immigrants...

[Myron Piatek]

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

Taken from the online regulations....doesn't (a), simply interpreted, say 26,001 pound rating including a trailer with a rating over 10,000 pounds?

The story, on the other hand, seems to say a combined total of 10,000lbs is a CMV!
Heck, a fully loaded 4 door dually with a camper or fiberglass topper can top that - by itself!

For reference, I recently weighed my fully loaded set-up. 2004.5 Dodge diesel dually w/26' Pace trailer.

Front axle: 4,140
Rear axle: 5,900
Trailer axles: 9,340
________________
Total: 19,380

Trailer rating is 12,000.
Not sure on the truck, but I don't thing it's more than 14,000.

I'm also curious what the definition of "corporate" is. Local parts store? A friend's shop?

[Michael Beard]

I'll be running H/CM instead of J/CM when I go down to Immokalee next year. Gotta keep the 1500 Ram and open trailer lighter, I guess. Keep it light, and I don't need the exemption for the corporate sponsorship. Err.... right?

[JRyan]

I think the DOT officer from Florida is quoting off of a position statement that may have been adopted for use by their patromen. It doesn't mean that it's CORRECT. This happens quite often and I'll get back to this point later.

Florida's DOT ASSUMING "Corporate Sponsorship" just because you have a DECAL is in itself a false premis. If you were PAID to put the decal on the car, AND claim the income as an offset to expenses, then you would be involved in a Commericial Endeavor. Just having the decal on the car means absolutely nothing. If you were paid to have the decal on the car and claimed the $$$ as "ordinary income" on your tax return, you meet the criteria of the DOT regs regarding exceptions.

The problem is that every states HP's are looking for "atta boys" from their superiors who themselves don't really know the law, but only go by the position statement they've been handed.

Personal case in point. I dealt with Social Services regarding a position paper they referred to with regard to care for my father. They were adamant that the position paper was correct. Unfortunately for the State of South Dakota, it didn't follow the law. We won all 19 points of the case, and although the dollar amount we won was small, it ended up costing the State of South Dakota $2.3 MILLION in back pay to those whom they had previously slighted.

I think the State of Florida better look at the exemption part a little more closely, as well as "Corporate Sponsorship". If you never get a dime from the decal, how are you Corporate Sponsored?

Jerry