Buttons in Stock

[Gary Smith]

This weekend I ran my late father's '65 Mustang at a local Ford event. Although just a few passes, I can comfortably admit launching a 2 step controlled clutch car vs. a "two foot" launch in an automatic has some similarities. I also heard enough talk from other racers this weekend about certain div 1 stock racers who are cheating with electronics.

So, until I see one of these certain racers drive a clutch car that LEAVES WITH A PEDAL, and see .001 - .009 lights on a regular basis, I say ditch buttons on automatic cars only, letting the stick racers keep 2 and 3 step launch controls.

[Michael Beard]

>> and see .001 - .009 lights on a regular basis

While I prefer footbrake style racing, there is nobody cutting ".001 - .009 lights on a regular basis", anyway. Someone has already posted average reaction times for a number of 'name' drivers, and they are typically high teen to low twenties range. As well they SHOULD be.

Practice trees are available from a number of sources. I recommend the hand-held unit from Biondo. I keep one with me. If you need help with setup, refer to the Reaction Time Clinic and Practice Tree articles on www.staginglight.com/guide/

[Gary Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

>> and see .001 - .009 lights on a regular basis

While I prefer footbrake style racing, there is nobody cutting ".001 - .009 lights on a regular basis", anyway. Someone has already posted average reaction times for a number of 'name' drivers, and they are typically high teen to low twenties range. As well they SHOULD be.

Practice trees are available from a number of sources. I recommend the hand-held unit from Biondo. I keep one with me. If you need help with setup, refer to the Reaction Time Clinic and Practice Tree articles on www.staginglight.com/guide/

Sorry Mike, let me re-phrase what I meant: it's the really quick foot brake lights within a tight range that I can't fathom. Yes, I'm fully aware the value of seat time. But I've been around long enough to know there's nobody that good that often on so many tracks. What's more bizzare is how few of these individuals there are out there.

It would seem possible for me to find some of the variables (i.e. staging habits, weather, rollout, etc.) that could garner consistent .02 - .03 lights. I'm thinking this is after at least 30 -40 passes in the same lane at the same track. But leaving with a button removes many of these variables IMHO.

[Alan Roehrich]

Eventually some of these people should look at what they're saying, and realize how hilariously deluded they are.

Guys like Bertozzi, Zane, Fletcher, Biondo, and Rampy get more seat time and more shots at the tree in a week than most people get in a month. They LIVE with it. They race nearly every weekend, and some times two entirely different races in a weekend. They have talent, and they spend half of their waking hours developing and refining their talent. As a benefit of that talent and that work, they get the best chance at having the best equipment, and the best backing. And there probably aren't too many tracks in the country that they HAVEN'T been on for 40 passes or so, at least.

It's like football. If you take one of the most talented quarterbacks, give him one of the best offensive lines, a real good running back, and a couple of good receivers, give them plenty of practice together, then you're going to score some touchdowns. Put that group against an average defense, that gets 1/3 the practice, and the offense is going to score big, and score often. Put a talented driver in the best equipment, with plenty of backing and a good crew chief, let him drive that equipment EVERY weekend, and he's going to beat the average racer like a drum.

I just love when people TALK about who is cheating. Every where you go you'll find people who just KNOW the fast guys are cheating, and they just KNOW the winners are cheating. But they have ZERO proof, and they won't put up a dime to see what is in the "cheated up" car. Talk is CHEAP, when you can PROVE some one is cheating, put your money where your mouth is, tear them down, prove it, and THEN you can say "I told you so".

[jerrym]

Chris Plott (who also footbraked to the *Box* class championship at Mooresville this year!) and Adam Davis both won Stock in their one and only attempts, just for an example, and it only took Ricky Baehr about 3-4 races to win a National event.

Damn Micheal ive only been gone for 1 yesr and you already forgot about me? I won the 1st natinal event i ever entered! Thats okay ill be back next year ! see ya soon

Jeremy Mitchell

[Michael Beard]

Well, YEAH! My dad always tells me this is a "what have you done lately" sport. Gotta keep in the headlines! But YOU were cheating. I don't think anyone else has fallen out of a tree with that car.

But seriously, hope that things are good with the family. It'll (be great/really suck) to have you back!

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that this thread hasn't spurred on more conversation about "how can I improve my racing program?" I learn something new all the time.

[Jack McCarthy]

question ?

i saw my first one at indy yesterday, heard rampy sells / uses it ????
what is up with the brake pressure activated two step switch in the brake line ??
it is definitely adjustable... is it legit ???
not any "automotive type" switch ive ever seen ???

just another starting line AID i guess... legal electronic aids in a no electronic class

jack mccarthy

[Alan Roehrich]

As far as I know it is legal, I know a couple of people that use them, we don't.

If it is JUST a pressure switch, I suppose you could adjust it to make or break at a certain pressure, but I don't see where you can adjust it for a delay.

And actually, there are a lot of trailer brake systems that use a pressure switch in the brake line, and they are adjustable for pressure. So a brake line pressure switch can be classified as an automotive part.

I suppose, if you were so inclined, and had plenty of time, you could put a brake pressure gauge in the car, figure out the minimum pressure it takes to hold the car on the line, and set the switch to turn the two step on and off at that exact pressure. I suppose you could disguise a line lock solenoid as a brake pressure switch, if you looked hard enough to find the pieces.

I know a few people who use the factory brake light switch. I know others who use a button in the brake pedal itself.

I know a few who use a switch on the pedal or the brake light switch and a switch on the steering wheel. But the switch on the steering wheel doesn't work like most people think it does. If you think you can just release the switch on the steering wheel and it will launch the car, you are mistaken. If you have an A, B, or C car and you try that, what will actually happen is you'll blow the tires off the rims, it'll just spin. Further, it'll never react at the same time or the same way, because your leg won't move the same way. And you can't use the brakes to set the car in the lights, get on the two step, and let off the brakes, either, the car will move. The REAL reason a lot of people put a switch on the steering wheel is so they don't accidentally re engage the two step later by stepping on the brake.

By the way, I've had a look at the inside of a couple of transmissions from the winners car's, one way or the other. There's NOTHING in them, except drums, bands, and planetaries. No brakes, no delay devices, no tricks, no nothing but plain old transmission parts.

[Dave Goob Cook]

Hydraulic brake lamp switches have been used since hydraulic brakes were a new thing, just a single pole, single throw hydraulic pressure activated switch.
Look through a NAPA catalog.

[Michael Beard]

Gary writes: >> it's the really quick foot brake lights within a tight range that I can't fathom. [...] that could garner consistent .02 - .03 lights.

If you can find .02 to .03 lights, then after some adjustment, you can find .01 to .02 lights. Adjust the car some more, and there's .00 to .01 lights. If you look at all of their runs, 'the hitters' really *aren't* double-oh every run. With the stats someone posted before, I think Lee Zane had the best average, and I've seen him at 'footbrake only' races, and he's every bit as good without them.

>> But I've been around long enough to know there's nobody that good that often on so many tracks.

Y'all are welcome to look at my logbook anytime. The rollout of my Volare doesn't really suit me, although I'm making progress with it. But even with that car, if I'm DEAD late, it's an .03x or .04x light. The very first year I drove Terry Knott's Dart Sport, my average R/T for the season was .024. Both cars are 'pure footbrake'. I don't want this to come across big-headed. If you're going to make broad statements, they need to be backed up with statistics. If I can do it footbraking, why is it so outlandish that the "hitters" can do it with better cars, more experience, and 2-steps?

I would argue that there's a lot more guys that good that you haven't even heard of yet.
I announced at the World Footbrake Challenge at Bristol this year... got to watch 300 footbrakers for 3 days, and that included Lee Zane. YES, they ARE that good, and YES, there ARE more than just a few of them out there! Just be glad that more of them don't run Stock. Chris Plott (who also footbraked to the *Box* class championship at Mooresville this year!) and Adam Davis both won Stock in their one and only attempts, just for an example, and it only took Ricky Baehr about 3-4 races to win a National event. I hate to say it, but these kids may even be better than Zane. When these guys who are in literally 30-40 final rounds a year start running Stock, you'll have a whole new crowd to fuss about.

In RE: to "that good that often on so many tracks.", you have a couple of things to consider, the primary one being rollout. Rollout is only going to differ so much from track to track. Personally, I consider the majority of tracks as having a 'baseline' rollout. Some tracks will be a little looser, some a little tighter. It's rare for any track to be more than .01-.02 different from the baseline. When you travel a lot, it doesn't take too long to rack up multiple visits to a track. By keeping good notes in your logbook, you can know how to set up for a track before you make the first hit.

Now, the key is to first be consistent, yourself. As mentioned before, I carry a handheld practice tree with me from Biondo. When you react, you need to be able to know how you hit it and what the numbers should be before they come up on the display (or scoreboard). If you can do that, you can instantly relate how both you and the car reacted, to what you're seeing on the scoreboard, and know that if YOU were late or early, or if the track's rollout varies from the 'baseline rollout'. It's also important to make a hit in both lanes, as lanes can vary as well. The first time I ever went to Grand Bend, at the head of the staging lanes, I hit the practice tree... .013, .011, .012, .012, and then pulled into the burnout box. I was .012 on the track, thus reinforcing that my rollout setting in the practice tree was correct. Now, had I felt like I had missed it, and came up .028, I *still* would have known that my practice rollout was correct. Had I felt like I killed it, and came up .028, then I would know that the rollout is loose, and would have to adjust my car and/or my practice rollout accordingly.

My dad hollers at me, "Don't give away all your secrets!", but I have an Educational Psychology background, and I enjoy teaching. If you see me at the track, come say hi. Ask questions if you want, or tell me your opinions. I'm an open book.

>>I'm thinking this is after at least 30 -40 passes in the same lane at the same track.

2-3 should be enough. Again - logbooks and practice trees.

>> But leaving with a button removes many of these variables IMHO.

THAT I will agree with!

>> what is up with the brake pressure activated two step switch in the brake line ??

I never thought of that! Smart idea. Those drivers should experience even more consistency by making sure their brake pressure is the same on every run -- meaning they should release more consistently as well.

FYI - Tony Wood kicked my butt at Tulsa! LOL I'm coming for a rematch next year, bud! I know where the rollout is at that track, now.