Last Year of Modified? Question - Page 3

Rich Biebel · 02-10-2009, 11:29 PM

Modified was great but lets talk about the bad side....costs and breakage. Everytime something new came out you had to have it. Driveline breakage was pretty bad and engine breakage could also put you out of action quickly. We raced a car out of our shop in C/SM. I recall one run at Maple Grove where we broke the clutch, fixed it in a hurry and the car wouldn't move after replacing the clutch. The trans was also broken and the rear had damage as well we later found out. Folded the splines on some axles........took the motor out and apart practically after every race to puff it up. Other guys that had machine work done at our shop had all the same stories. I recall one guy built his own engine for D/MP and he was a very competetive car.....the engine blew up on T/K's dyno and that ended that racers drive to continue. Another guy was the class winner from the E-Town SummerNationals and won pretty regularly with it. He blew his engine and sold the car.....My friend bought it to replace his Camaro.....becasue the Novas were better? When we went to pick it up an exhaust valve head fell out of one of the headers.....The guy said....."so thats where that went!" The costs were too high for the average guy to keep up with. I loved the category but I saw a ton of breakage, Only the top guys had all the best stuff to try and limit that breakage.....

impstocker · 02-11-2009, 04:49 AM

Check out mu video from 1981

Will Lamprecht
Stk #1427 68 Impala I/S

bill dedman · 02-11-2009, 07:37 AM

Modified Eliminator rundown...

For anyone who wasn't around to witness it, here's a thumbnail view of the makeup, as I remember it, and I am sure I've forgotten a lot in the 28 years since it's been contested. Please correct me when I'm wrong.

To begin with, people tend to say "Modified" without specifying whether they mean "Modified Production" (a type of vehicle that was closely akin to a Super Stocker, but was more-modified), when more likely, they mean "Modified Eliminator," a category of cars of various types (Gassers, Street Roadsters, Modified Production cars, etc.)

Modified Eliminator was a logical "next step" in the upward progression of the degree of modification of vehicles that started with Stock, then Super Stock, then Modified Eliminator, then Middle Eliminator, and finally, Top Eliminator. It all made perfect sense. Like all the cars in Modified Eliminator, Modified Production cars ran a variety of Modified Production classes (A through H??) depending on engine size and vehicle weight. A/MP, B/MP, C/MP etc....

The most popular cars in Modified Eliminator were probably, the "Modified Production" cars that were basically (in the beginning of the class, anyway), pretty much Super Stock-style cars, with unlimited, full-race engines in them, and drivetrain mods that were appropriate for thet kind of horsepower output. The chassis modifications were pretty limited, but the engines could be all-out, except no blowers or turbos were allowed, and they were classified by pounds-per-cubic inch, of course. In the beginning, I seem to remember that Modified production cars had a tire-width limit that may have been done away with, eventually... Maybe originally 7", like a Stocker.... I just don't remember.

Also popular, were the Gas Coupe and Sedans, which were usually built using an earlier chassis (old Willys coupes of the '30s and early '40s were very popular for awhile, but got replaced by the smaller, lighter British Ford Anglias, eventually) with virtually anything from a 4-cylinder flathead motor to GMC-blown 472-inch Chrysler Hemis for motivation. These cars, along with the sister-cars, "Street Roadsters" were limited to a 10-percent engine setback (whereas the Modified Production cars had to put the engine pretty much where it originally sat, with no firewall modifications, originally.) The big-inch A Gas Supercharged cars were the technological forerunners of the Funny Cars, later to come, and ran speeds in the 140-150 range as early as 1962... There were Anglias with 427 Chevy Rat Motors hooked to 4-speeds running A Gas... talk about a handfull to drive!!!

"Middle Eliminator," the next step up the performance ladder, was a place to race if you had built an Altered (which had no street equipment, and usually, no fenders.... and were allowed a 25-percent engine setback), or a Modified Roadster or Competition Coupe (basically a dragster with some sort of OEM body hung on to keep it out of the dragster classes), or small engine dragsters, such as flatheads, six-cylinders, unblown small blocks and the like.

All of these above cars ran in classes that were "A," "B," "C," and so-on, depending on the pounds-per-cubic-inch, within the Eliminator.

The variety of cars running Modified Eliminator was endless. For example, in about 1978, I went to an independent race at Rockford, Ill. called "The Gas Coupe and Sedan Nationals", which probably should have been called "The Modified Eliminator Nationals," since that's what was running there; all types of Modified Eliminator cars, including many, many, Modified Production cars of all types.

The Final, for the money, was between a turbocharged 2-liter Pinto (later owned by Buddy Ingersoll, but, not yet) and the Dave Hutchens Opel GT/small block Chevy from Wayne County Speed Shop. I can't remember what class that Opel ran, but it was probably B Gas Coupe.

They were running off NHRA indexes, and the index for that Pinto was in the low 11's at the time. It was running a Doug Nash 5-speed and so was the Wayne County car. Both cars pulled the wheels on every gear-change... exciting to watch!.

The Pinto could not be beaten that day.. easily outdistancing the Gasser from Wayne County. Ingersoll bought the car from the two Ford Motor Company engineers who had built it, and eventually took that Pinto to 9.80s.... at 134+ mph.... so, it had a lot of potential left, with a low 11 index...

That is the kind of variety that existed on an ongoing basis, in Modified Eliminator. No wonder it had such spectator appeal.... Indy's Modified Eliminator show was HUGE, and about as good as it gets for Sportsman racing, I thought.

Too bad they couldn't figure a way to keep it around. It became a victim of its own excellence, as the cutting edge technology that was required to maintain a winning presence in that Eliminator caused costs to skyrocket to the point that many players just couldn't afford to keep up, and dropped out. Before it was done away with, participation had dropped off, significantly (although perhaps not at the U.S. Nationals).... just too expensive.

At least, that's the way I remember it...

If someone sees mistakes I made in this explanation, please correct me; I've slept since then...

Bill

Rich Biebel · 02-11-2009, 07:56 AM

My good friend Jay Kalmus is the person responsible for me and my partner getting involved in drag racing in the mid 60's. He ran various MP cars. At that time he ran what was called Street eliminator. That consisted of MP cars and some other classes of the day. Like the classes for Corvettes and Cobras....AA/Sports down thru about E/Sports. Gassers also ran Street eliminator. Blown gassers ran Super eliminator and then there was Competition eliminator for gas dragsters, altereds and some other cars. They all push started from the top end of my local track but Street eliminator cars had to self start. At some point Modified was created. My friend Jay ran D/MP with a '57 chevy wagon. It ws a 301. Intakes were still real old school stuff back then. Inline 2 fours then a cross ram deal was tried. I traveled with him a lot in 1968 and we tried to set the record a few times. It was about 12.60 at the time. I think we did set the record at one race at 12.57.......He passed away after a long battle with cancer......We had a lot of fun back then for sure..........

Bob Don · 02-11-2009, 08:40 AM

Will - Thanks for the link to the Connecticut race. That looked like it was the 1981 WWCS race in which case I was there running Stock. I was looking for Frank Fitts at the starting line. Mark Yac - did you recognize anyone? (You might have been working line!). To get back on topic, the shop that sponsored me also sponsored the "Precocious" B/SM fielded by Nick Mazzeo and Steve Negrini. I still run into Nick from time to time and Steve still races (I think in SS/DM). These guys held the record in B/SM for some time. That was quite and accomplichment back then as there were so many SM's around.

impstocker · 02-11-2009, 08:53 AM

Bob Don

You ran that V/SA Nova right? My bvrother went to that race to look at your car, he also built V/SA the following year, check out video

I also have footage of your car if you are the one with that blue Nova, I will try to upload.

Will Lamprecht

TOM KASCH · 02-11-2009, 09:15 AM

how about this many cars being told STAY HOME we don't need you guys!

Bob Don · 02-11-2009, 09:19 AM

Will - That was me with the blue Nova. I would LOVE to see any video or stills you might have. Just hearing the sound of your brother's V/SA brought back memories. Thanks!

TOM KASCH · 02-11-2009, 09:21 AM

of 6 pages
Having trouble ,had to make them smaller,sorry

TOM KASCH · 02-11-2009, 09:23 AM

pt 2 of page 2

02-10-2009, 11:29 PM	#21
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,314 Likes: 25 Liked 544 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? Question Modified was great but lets talk about the bad side....costs and breakage. Everytime something new came out you had to have it. Driveline breakage was pretty bad and engine breakage could also put you out of action quickly. We raced a car out of our shop in C/SM. I recall one run at Maple Grove where we broke the clutch, fixed it in a hurry and the car wouldn't move after replacing the clutch. The trans was also broken and the rear had damage as well we later found out. Folded the splines on some axles........took the motor out and apart practically after every race to puff it up. Other guys that had machine work done at our shop had all the same stories. I recall one guy built his own engine for D/MP and he was a very competetive car.....the engine blew up on T/K's dyno and that ended that racers drive to continue. Another guy was the class winner from the E-Town SummerNationals and won pretty regularly with it. He blew his engine and sold the car.....My friend bought it to replace his Camaro.....becasue the Novas were better? When we went to pick it up an exhaust valve head fell out of one of the headers.....The guy said....."so thats where that went!" The costs were too high for the average guy to keep up with. I loved the category but I saw a ton of breakage, Only the top guys had all the best stuff to try and limit that breakage..... __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R

02-11-2009, 04:49 AM	#22
impstocker Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wingdale, NY Posts: 302 Likes: 27 Liked 53 Times in 16 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? Question Check out mu video from 1981 Will Lamprecht Stk #1427 68 Impala I/S

02-11-2009, 07:37 AM	#23
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? Question Modified Eliminator rundown... For anyone who wasn't around to witness it, here's a thumbnail view of the makeup, as I remember it, and I am sure I've forgotten a lot in the 28 years since it's been contested. Please correct me when I'm wrong. To begin with, people tend to say "Modified" without specifying whether they mean "Modified Production" (a type of vehicle that was closely akin to a Super Stocker, but was more-modified), when more likely, they mean "Modified Eliminator," a category of cars of various types (Gassers, Street Roadsters, Modified Production cars, etc.) Modified Eliminator was a logical "next step" in the upward progression of the degree of modification of vehicles that started with Stock, then Super Stock, then Modified Eliminator, then Middle Eliminator, and finally, Top Eliminator. It all made perfect sense. Like all the cars in Modified Eliminator, Modified Production cars ran a variety of Modified Production classes (A through H??) depending on engine size and vehicle weight. A/MP, B/MP, C/MP etc.... The most popular cars in Modified Eliminator were probably, the "Modified Production" cars that were basically (in the beginning of the class, anyway), pretty much Super Stock-style cars, with unlimited, full-race engines in them, and drivetrain mods that were appropriate for thet kind of horsepower output. The chassis modifications were pretty limited, but the engines could be all-out, except no blowers or turbos were allowed, and they were classified by pounds-per-cubic inch, of course. In the beginning, I seem to remember that Modified production cars had a tire-width limit that may have been done away with, eventually... Maybe originally 7", like a Stocker.... I just don't remember. Also popular, were the Gas Coupe and Sedans, which were usually built using an earlier chassis (old Willys coupes of the '30s and early '40s were very popular for awhile, but got replaced by the smaller, lighter British Ford Anglias, eventually) with virtually anything from a 4-cylinder flathead motor to GMC-blown 472-inch Chrysler Hemis for motivation. These cars, along with the sister-cars, "Street Roadsters" were limited to a 10-percent engine setback (whereas the Modified Production cars had to put the engine pretty much where it originally sat, with no firewall modifications, originally.) The big-inch A Gas Supercharged cars were the technological forerunners of the Funny Cars, later to come, and ran speeds in the 140-150 range as early as 1962... There were Anglias with 427 Chevy Rat Motors hooked to 4-speeds running A Gas... talk about a handfull to drive!!! "Middle Eliminator," the next step up the performance ladder, was a place to race if you had built an Altered (which had no street equipment, and usually, no fenders.... and were allowed a 25-percent engine setback), or a Modified Roadster or Competition Coupe (basically a dragster with some sort of OEM body hung on to keep it out of the dragster classes), or small engine dragsters, such as flatheads, six-cylinders, unblown small blocks and the like. All of these above cars ran in classes that were "A," "B," "C," and so-on, depending on the pounds-per-cubic-inch, within the Eliminator. The variety of cars running Modified Eliminator was endless. For example, in about 1978, I went to an independent race at Rockford, Ill. called "The Gas Coupe and Sedan Nationals", which probably should have been called "The Modified Eliminator Nationals," since that's what was running there; all types of Modified Eliminator cars, including many, many, Modified Production cars of all types. The Final, for the money, was between a turbocharged 2-liter Pinto (later owned by Buddy Ingersoll, but, not yet) and the Dave Hutchens Opel GT/small block Chevy from Wayne County Speed Shop. I can't remember what class that Opel ran, but it was probably B Gas Coupe. They were running off NHRA indexes, and the index for that Pinto was in the low 11's at the time. It was running a Doug Nash 5-speed and so was the Wayne County car. Both cars pulled the wheels on every gear-change... exciting to watch!. The Pinto could not be beaten that day.. easily outdistancing the Gasser from Wayne County. Ingersoll bought the car from the two Ford Motor Company engineers who had built it, and eventually took that Pinto to 9.80s.... at 134+ mph.... so, it had a lot of potential left, with a low 11 index... That is the kind of variety that existed on an ongoing basis, in Modified Eliminator. No wonder it had such spectator appeal.... Indy's Modified Eliminator show was HUGE, and about as good as it gets for Sportsman racing, I thought. Too bad they couldn't figure a way to keep it around. It became a victim of its own excellence, as the cutting edge technology that was required to maintain a winning presence in that Eliminator caused costs to skyrocket to the point that many players just couldn't afford to keep up, and dropped out. Before it was done away with, participation had dropped off, significantly (although perhaps not at the U.S. Nationals).... just too expensive. At least, that's the way I remember it... If someone sees mistakes I made in this explanation, please correct me; I've slept since then... Bill __________________ Bill

02-11-2009, 07:56 AM	#24
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,314 Likes: 25 Liked 544 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? Question My good friend Jay Kalmus is the person responsible for me and my partner getting involved in drag racing in the mid 60's. He ran various MP cars. At that time he ran what was called Street eliminator. That consisted of MP cars and some other classes of the day. Like the classes for Corvettes and Cobras....AA/Sports down thru about E/Sports. Gassers also ran Street eliminator. Blown gassers ran Super eliminator and then there was Competition eliminator for gas dragsters, altereds and some other cars. They all push started from the top end of my local track but Street eliminator cars had to self start. At some point Modified was created. My friend Jay ran D/MP with a '57 chevy wagon. It ws a 301. Intakes were still real old school stuff back then. Inline 2 fours then a cross ram deal was tried. I traveled with him a lot in 1968 and we tried to set the record a few times. It was about 12.60 at the time. I think we did set the record at one race at 12.57.......He passed away after a long battle with cancer......We had a lot of fun back then for sure.......... __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R

02-11-2009, 08:40 AM	#25
Bob Don VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Greater Boston Posts: 1,495 Likes: 1,113 Liked 900 Times in 191 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? Question Will - Thanks for the link to the Connecticut race. That looked like it was the 1981 WWCS race in which case I was there running Stock. I was looking for Frank Fitts at the starting line. Mark Yac - did you recognize anyone? (You might have been working line!). To get back on topic, the shop that sponsored me also sponsored the "Precocious" B/SM fielded by Nick Mazzeo and Steve Negrini. I still run into Nick from time to time and Steve still races (I think in SS/DM). These guys held the record in B/SM for some time. That was quite and accomplichment back then as there were so many SM's around.

02-11-2009, 08:53 AM	#26
impstocker Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Wingdale, NY Posts: 302 Likes: 27 Liked 53 Times in 16 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? Question Bob Don You ran that V/SA Nova right? My bvrother went to that race to look at your car, he also built V/SA the following year, check out video I also have footage of your car if you are the one with that blue Nova, I will try to upload. Will Lamprecht

02-11-2009, 09:15 AM	#27
TOM KASCH VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: TOLEDO,OHIO Posts: 1,735 Likes: 0 Liked 241 Times in 100 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? 1970 INDY ENTRYLIST how about this many cars being told STAY HOME we don't need you guys! Attached Thumbnails

02-11-2009, 09:19 AM	#28
Bob Don VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Greater Boston Posts: 1,495 Likes: 1,113 Liked 900 Times in 191 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? Question Will - That was me with the blue Nova. I would LOVE to see any video or stills you might have. Just hearing the sound of your brother's V/SA brought back memories. Thanks!

02-11-2009, 09:21 AM	#29
TOM KASCH VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: TOLEDO,OHIO Posts: 1,735 Likes: 0 Liked 241 Times in 100 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? page 2 of 6 pages Having trouble ,had to make them smaller,sorry Attached Thumbnails

02-11-2009, 09:23 AM	#30
TOM KASCH VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: TOLEDO,OHIO Posts: 1,735 Likes: 0 Liked 241 Times in 100 Posts	Re: Last Year of Modified? page 2 pt-2 pt 2 of page 2