Pontiac SOHC 6 Stockers ?

[bill dedman]

I am not going to hijack this post (AGAIN), but there is one more question that Mark, or someone more knowledgeable than myself might answer for me. I've been curious about this for several years, and this would seem to be an ample opportunity to get this "yes or no" question answered.

With your permission, here goes...

NHRA, in a ruling on a late model Corvette a few years back, allowed (for Stock Eliminator) the complete removal of the transaxle, which was, naturally, OEM in the rear of the car, and allowed the installation of a conventional automatic transmission (conventional, as in Camaro-style) bolted to the block with a normal Chevy bell housing, and the installation of a "live axle" (probably 12-bolt) rear axle assembly, complete.
This rolling, driveline-freak, was campaigned as a legal Stock Eliminator car for awhile.

The owner may have been Stan White, a Div. IV racer. Not sure about that...

My question is this:

Since NHRA allowed this sort of "Franken-tranny" funny business for that Corvette, do you think that permission for a similar transformation could be successfully obtained from NHRA, using a transaxle-equipped 1963 Tempest 326 V8, for Stock Eliminator?

Those cars seemingly have potential with the 4bbl motor for Stock, but the swing axles and Corvair-based transaxle make it a drivetrain nightmare; ostensibly, an accident looking for a place to happen.

I'd think that NHRA would approve it if only on a safety-related basis. Swing axles are not something you want to break... and these would be highly suspect, given the tires and track-prep we have today.

The aforementioned Corvette seemingly set the precedent; do you think that NHRA would go for the same switchero in a Temoest, and, if not, why not???

Or, do I already know the answer to that last question/?? LOL!

Now, back to your normally-scheduled programming....

[Kegracing]

Adam,

I might be interested in the emblems. I am putting a 400 hood on for stock class, but would always be nice to have some if I ever change it back to origional...
Please send me some pic's and let me know how much you want for them.

email is kegracing@yahoo.com

thanks

Ken

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Im curious as to what you mean by "transaxle" If you mean independent rear suspension it can be changed to a solid axle.

The corvettes I am familiar with (C3 and before) had only an IRS...not a transaxle.

Corvairs do, but thats a different animal......

My understanding is as long as the stock shock and spring locations are used its legal.......IF that can be done with a Transverse leaf on the early vettes or ? on the newer I dont know......

But independent rear suspension isnt a transaxle in my book.....

Could you legally replace it on a Tempest ? I dono....can you use the stock shock and spring location ?

Here is the rule.....

"

Swing axle differential may be replaced with conventional housing;
stock trailing arms must be retained, may be beefed up and
adapted to housing, must retain transverse spring. Must install
Panhard bar. Frame may be notched for driveshaft clearance.
Distance between OEM backing plates and OEM wheelbase must

be maintained.
"

Originally Posted by bill dedman

I am not going to hijack this post (AGAIN), but there is one more question that Mark, or someone more knowledgeable than myself might answer for me. I've been curious about this for several years, and this would seem to be an ample opportunity to get this "yes or no" question answered.

With your permission, here goes...

NHRA, in a ruling on a late model Corvette a few years back, allowed (for Stock Eliminator) the complete removal of the transaxle, which was, naturally, OEM in the rear of the car, and allowed the installation of a conventional automatic transmission (conventional, as in Camaro-style) bolted to the block with a normal Chevy bell housing, and the installation of a "live axle" (probably 12-bolt) rear axle assembly, complete.
This rolling, driveline-freak, was campaigned as a legal Stock Eliminator car for awhile.

The owner may have been Stan White, a Div. IV racer. Not sure about that...

My question is this:

Since NHRA allowed this sort of "Franken-tranny" funny business for that Corvette, do you think that permission for a similar transformation could be successfully obtained from NHRA, using a transaxle-equipped 1963 Tempest 326 V8, for Stock Eliminator?

Those cars seemingly have potential with the 4bbl motor for Stock, but the swing axles and Corvair-based transaxle make it a drivetrain nightmare; ostensibly, an accident looking for a place to happen.

I'd think that NHRA would approve it if only on a safety-related basis. Swing axles are not something you want to break... and these would be highly suspect, given the tires and track-prep we have today.

The aforementioned Corvette seemingly set the precedent; do you think that NHRA would go for the same switchero in a Temoest, and, if not, why not???

Or, do I already know the answer to that last question/?? LOL!

Now, back to your normally-scheduled programming....

[bill dedman]

Drooze,

Beginning in 1961 (or, was it 1960? My recollection is so fuzzy... sorry), Tempests were built with a Corvair-like transaxle that had swing axles like the Corvairs of the day did. The power was transmitted from the crankshaft in the front of the car, to the transaxle, in the rear of the car, by what most laymen called a "rope." a flexible piece of somethingorother that was able to bend a certain amount to "sowbelly" under the floorpan, in the absence of a conventional driveshaft tunnel. The cars with this system (all Tempests through 1963) had the clutch, or converter,(if an automatic) attached to the front of the transaxle case, in the back of the car (I'm not making this up....)

The transaxle unit was a Corvair-type unit, with swing axles. Unsafe at any speed.... LOL!

Swing axles are different from IRS in that an IRS system has two U-Joints on each axle, so that camber is not necessarily relative to the axle's position in its travel up and down. Swing axless create a situation wherein, the attached wheel's camber is a slave to the vertical position of the wheel in its travel, because it's "hinged" at the axle's end (at the center of the car.) This creates overt and potentially-dangerous changes in camber as the wheel travels up and down due to road irregularities, etc... Not good. Additionally, if the axle snaps, the wheel goes completly awry because the axle is one of the locating components.. sort of triangulating the location process. Should it break, the wheel can (and, will) fold up under the car like a landing gear on an airplane that has "fold-up" landing gear.

Corvettes never had swing axles; they went directly from the live axle 1962 models to the IRS, in 1963.

But in the recent past, the Corvette's drivetrain configuration has been redesigned, and has moved the transmission to the area just in front of the pinion gear, and has incorporated the clutch (or, converter,) the transmission case, and the differential housing all in one unit... a "transaxle" that incorporates an IRS system.

All that gee-whiz wizardry apparently doesn't do much for the drag racing capabilities of the car, for whatever reason, so a Stock Eliminator car was approved by NHRA, that allowed moving the transmission back to the front location, attached to the engine, and the transaxle care and its attendant IRS components were changed to a live axle (probably a 12-bolt housing andthe necessary gears.)

No more transaxle... just old-fashioned drivetrain pieces.


I am wondering whether the '63 Tempest, which has a transaxle AND swing axles, might not be approved by NHRA, since the Corvette got approval for such a change.

Am I nuts for thinking this might be feasible?

If they (NHRA) fail to approve it, after giving the late-model Corvettes the nod to make this switch, I'd sure like to be there to hear the rationalizations flow, as they squirm like a worm on a hot griddle, trying to justify why that what's good for the goose is NOT good for the gander, in this case.

[Ken Haase]

Bill, are you shooruh your info on the '63 Tempest's is correct? How can you be so shooruh? And I say this with all due respect, but I heard Mona Lisa Vito swear under oath that 1963 Pontiac Tempest's have "independant reera suspension". Maybe it was just the one's painted metallic Mint Green paint. What a f*****g night mayrah!

Div.1 guys, please don't hesitate to correct my spelling. There was a time when I believed you all sounded like Sergei Dennebaum aka 'the Mad Russian'. Little did I know.

Yes, Your Honor. I plead guilty to having watched MCV more times than the Law allows. And, I will continue to do so.

[bill dedman]

Ken,

To the best of my recollection, at that point in time...

The most fascinating examples were the ones that were built with the 421, 405 HP dual-quad "AFX" motor. They built just a few of these, both coupes and wagons, before the front office dropped the hammer on racing, and stopped building the Z-11 Chevys and these Tempeats (along with the Swiss Cheese Catalinas.

Those few Tempests that were campagned by Arnie Beswick, Hayden Proffitt, et al, had 4-speed automativc transaxles that were, from all reports, available with either a torque converter OR a clutch and flywheel, both in the rear. They were fashioned from TWO Corvair Powerglide transaxles, and had great, close ratios, and were fully automatic.

They were blindingly fast, but proved to be disappointingly unreliable.

Eventually, a lot of them were replaced by a conventional, Dual-Range Hydramatic, bolted to the engine, a conventional driveshaft, and a complete Pontiac live axle.

It was a great idea, but doomed from the start because of the inherent weakness of the Corvair-based components.

Too bad; hardly any of these 4-speed transaxle cars remain; I have heard of only one, complete, original car, left.

[Mark Yacavone]

Bill, the clutch was in the conventional location on the early Tempests.
The automatic just had an adapter there, and the torque converter was in the back ,behind the differential.. Kind of opposite to the Corvair.

The driveshaft was a steel bar, held in the bowed position by support bearings

[bill dedman]

Thanks, Markl!!! I KNEW you'd have the straight scoop!!!