Stocker Cylinder Heads....

Rich, I've heard stories about that car when Spyder raced it, on how unbeatable it was compared to anything else. I've heard that from multiple people over the years. Spyder told me how mad Jenkins was when he sold the car, because he didn't not want other people looking at it. Think there was stuff in the questionable or on the edge? I'm sure. I'm not saying you think the class is bad, just that tech wasn't perfect back then and stuff got by. I will ask Walter about some of this.

Tech has thrown people out for questionable cylinder heads, In fact it has happend this year. I think tech does an excellent job, and unfairly overruled by the higher up due to politics at times. Nothing new I'm sure...

QUOTE=Rich Biebel;331831]Maybe you need to check your facts Todd..

The Monster Mash was a 265 in a 55 Chevy with a 3 speed.....Lots of other cars just like it were also fast back than and if any of them had bogus heads like today and set a record they would have been thown the hell out......When we raced against the Monster Mash it was a 14 or 15 second car....

Did guys cheat and bend the rules and get away with it.....Well I am sure they did....but most didn't for fear of being caught.

I raced 2 cars from 1966 to 1970. Both were legal and ran pretty close to what most other cars of the day ran or faster.

I never said anything was wrong with Stock......
People like myself are just pointing out the way the rulebook is written about heads....

Ask Walter what he thinks....[/QUOTE]

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by PJ305

" Any valve job permitted " What does that really mean? In old rule books NHRA gave you an example of what an accepted 3 angle was supposed to look like along with measurements. If you have small intake runners to keep velocity up, are you allowed to put your heads on a serdi machine and open up the bottom angle as big as you want with a cutter off the valve guide and still be legal under there new any valve job rule? You did not grind, sandblast, acid port, shot peen or anything else, you simply did a fancy valve job on a machine with cutters off the valve guide. Will NHRA tech allow this if the runner cc checks or will this be a gray area judgement call " the famous I don't like the way it looks " I don't think Wade or any of us want to here that phrase anymore.

I was told that any cut had to be concentric with the valve guide, it had to be a cut, not ground, and the angle/shape had to go all the way around the bowl/seat, 360 degrees, and there was no depth restriction. Legal port volume must be retained.

If I were going to do something like that, I'd "get it in writing from Glendora", and keep it in the notebook that goes with the car.

[Wade_Owens]

All of you guys are confirming my original post. There is so much confusion on the cylinder head topic, it's unbelievable. Some of you say NHRA wants it this way. I don't think so. It takes posts and comments for them to realize it is a problem. Those tech guys don't like judgement calls either. They want a rule book they can stand on, too.

Weve had quite a few changes to the rule book in the last few years. We need more clarification on this topic.

Wade

[Dan Bennett]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

Rich, I've heard stories about that car when Spyder raced it, on how unbeatable it was compared to anything else. I've heard that from multiple people over the years. Spyder told me how mad Jenkins was when he sold the car, because he didn't not want other people looking at it. Think there was stuff in the questionable or on the edge? I'm sure. I'm not saying you think the class is bad, just that tech wasn't perfect back then and stuff got by. I will ask Walter about some of this.

Tech has thrown people out for questionable cylinder heads, In fact it has happend this year. I think tech does an excellent job, and unfairly overruled by the higher up due to politics at times. Nothing new I'm sure...

You're underestimating Jenkins. He was a genius at carbs and flow, but he might have even been better on the short block. Even back then, he was bringing a level of attention to engine building that few had attempted.

I worked around his engines and had conversations with him about the Monster Mash. Though he was always candid with areas he'd stretched the rules in I never once heard him say that about the car in question.

Jenkins sealed short blocks tighter than anyone I'd ever seen. Back in the day, I would not have believed his leakdown numbers had I not seen them myself.

And as for being angry about the car being sold, you'd be angry too if your entire career had been people copying your ideas that you didn't/couldn't patent. Things like gas ports, cylinder finish, block plates, and everything else he invented to keep blocks sealed.

Now extend that sort of thinking to every other process of engine building and you might understand why he didn't need to cheat.

[Dan Bennett]

Originally Posted by Wade_Owens

All of you guys are confirming my original post. There is so much confusion on the cylinder head topic, it's unbelievable. Some of you say NHRA wants it this way. I don't think so. It takes posts and comments for them to realize it is a problem. Those tech guys don't like judgement calls either. They want a rule book they can stand on, too.

Weve had quite a few changes to the rule book in the last few years. We need more clarification on this topic.

Wade

Wade, I can understand your concern and totally agree with you. But I don't think things are going to get any better.

While the tech guys don't like judgement calls, I'd bet their bosses do. If you leave the rulebook vague you don't have to have highly skilled workers spending a lot of time in precision measurement. You'd get the the environment we have today where not many cars get torn down and those that do have management saying "I know his stuff, he's ok" or "I don't trust that guy". Note that I am NOT talking about the tech guys in the trenches - I'm talking about the brass that so often seem to overrule them.

Then there's the problem of qualified people administering the program. I can remember that it took the better part of a year to get the plug gauge for measuring carb throats changed. The one I saw was made of aluminum, painted (or anodized) black and was often laying on a table in the sun. I guess it might have saved some people but it sure wasn't much good at keeping the carbs in spec.

Even if the rules did get re-written to be meaningful they couldn't be policed under the present system. First, there aren't enough people to handle the tear down, and more importantly there isn't the time as the events are presently structured.

[Rich Biebel]

Todd.......I don't mean to slander Spankos or Jenkins but I don't recall the Monster Mash ever winning anything on a national level. Maybe he won locally and I am sure he did at places like Cecil and many other tracks in their area and maybe a special race here or there......but I have no memory of the car winning anything major like an NHRA national.

Some of the Jenkins cars were regulars at Island and if there was a special race they might show up.....Pete Preston......The Mash a time or two....Dink Lawrence were some names I can recall around 1966. Jenkins raced there himself a few times....and everyone was well aware of any car with the Jenkins logo on it.......It was usually going to be a fast car....

As my friend Billy Nees mentioned you had to win class every week at your local track to run the eliminator. Local regulars got special treatment and you know that is true......BUT it only went so far. If someone thought you were cheating they could protest you and it did happen......and it happened to me and my partner with our sedan delivery.......

We were running a bucks up Jr stock race at Island and John Archambault protested us.....He wanted our cam checked and insisted it could not be stock because we ran a couple MPH better than him.......We were under protest so we made BYE runs thru the eliminator......untill the final......We raced The Monster Mash and expected to lose.....He missed a gear and we won........We were torn down in the barn up the hill from the track and after a long time we were awarded the win and the money.......
This race was in the fall after Indy.....
We were DQ'ed at Indy as the class r/up for a camshaft that was in the car that came from GM as a replacement......but was not accepted by NHRA yet.....The class winner was DQ'ed for the same thing.......A few weeks later the cam was accepted and it was what was in the car.....

If you were branded a cheater by being flunked in the barn.....Well you had a tough time undoing that and your competitors let you know it right up front.....

Trust me when I tell you those days were not all just friendly competition.......

My only point in all this is to point out that things were a lot different back then......The rulebook was not that much different than today when it comes to heads. Yes valves and the valvjob is more liberal but not the wording about the rest of it......

NHRA has no man power....will or interest in enforcing the rules so what you have today is a direct result of years of that......and I guess if you're going to run Stock.....you do what your comfortable with......

I probably enjoy driving a stocker as much or more than any other car or class.......and I have driven a lot of cars over the years.......I just dislike some of the "issues" that go with the category......

Your cars always run well and your a good racer......The Hard Times car is high on my list of all time great Stockers.....I always had a liking for Pontiacs........

[Jim Wahl]

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph

Shoot peening is also very good to hide porting just make sure you use the correct media.

So is shot peening Ralph! Jim

[Bobby Zlatkin]

Rich B., you are correct about the replacement cam for the 270 hp and 283 hp 283 engines not being accepted by Farmer. It was called the 'green stripe' cam by some and the 'Duntov cam' by others.

Farmer Dismuke knew that the posted specs. were short and bounced a few guys that he knew were running the cam right out of the tube. (That's how they used to come from GM)

Supposedly he did it to get GM to submit the correct specs. to the NHRA. I would have hated to have been one of the sacrificial lambs.

[Jack McCarthy]

wade,
for 15 years i tried to play ... albiet on a budget, i was pretty fast.

2009 was my last indy because of the bull**** tech and tech guys trying to one up each other. with no RULES they can get away with tossing or passing whoever they wish. they always tear down the same group of cars (NEVER a # 92 Q or better yet DNQ) those guys who run fast but not FAST (like you and a few years back me). those guys never set records like us ... you get the picture NEVER teardown. But YOU need an answer, you wanna win class you wanna set records and you have integrity too > tough place your $69 membership has put you in EH ??

i decided then i would NEVER build a new stocker motor when this one is done i'll figure it out but SS looks like it makes more sense than this "i dont like the looks of that" bull****. Travis Miller is a great techman...unfortunately his employer wont let him (other like him) do thier job...

so if they want you to pass pretty much any bull**** goes and if it is real wrong and you pass next year it is LEGAL.

so my friend who i admire greatly GOOD LUCK, and happy motoring !!!

captain jack

[Rich Biebel]

Originally Posted by Bobby Zlatkin

Rich B., you are correct about the replacement cam for the 270 hp and 283 hp 283 engines not being accepted by Farmer. It was called the 'green stripe' cam by some and the 'Duntov cam' by others.

Farmer Dismuke knew that the posted specs. were short and bounced a few guys that he knew were running the cam right out of the tube. (That's how they used to come from GM)

Supposedly he did it to get GM to submit the correct specs. to the NHRA. I would have hated to have been one of the sacrificial lambs.

Bobby I did not know that about the solid lifter Duntov cam....

We had a tow car once with that cam in it.........030-.030 lash makes a lot of noise and in a tow car it's no bargain flat towing to various places listening to that all the way!!!

We ran a 220 HP 283 in our sedan delivery....I/SA in 1966 and the original hydraulic cam was superceded by Chevy......We just ran what we got from Chevy and had it in the car all year if my memory serves me right....

On a side note.....We did have Bill Jenkins do a carb for us and it did not work well for us.....Actually it did not work worth a dam and I redid the carb myself.... a Carter- WCFB....We did not run the Rochester.....