Why Class racing dies slowly

[randy wilson]

Originally Posted by deuces wild

Why is this still being discussed?????

Just because we're bored.

[Dick Butler]

Originally Posted by buzzinhalfdozen

Dick, it appears you've answered your own questions in your posts. Take 2 racers, both work hard on their stuff one makes 55,000 a year has kids, mortgage ect. one makes 150,000 a year , has kids, mortgage ect. Now they're equally intelligent , motivated, and willing to work on their race cars to make them competitive. Which one's going to be the quicker car? As with most anything competitive the money always wins! Now racer number 1 may be one of the best drag racers ever, however he has no chance of winning class, does he just quit? It sounds to me at least that you want to develope a class that YOU want the YOU can be on top. How does that help "class racing"?

WOW you are still missing it. The winner of the two guys is the one with the more bogus motor factor unless they have the Same motor and car. SSM classes are exceptions.
I am not racing but watching how the racing class portion of Stk and SS has issues.
And Costs continue to be discussed. Why not limit the changes back to a basic car all can afford. Then the guy who works hardest and drives the smartest at least has a chance of winning.

[Ron Middleton]

Dick,
I fully understand what you're getting at but wasn't that pretty much the initial idea of Super Modified? I have never seen crate motors work in oval track racing as I ran the Parts Pro Truck Series for almost 5 years about the same JC Beattie was running. They introduced crate motors and it all went to hell in a hand bag. What keeps someone with money from buying 10 motors, dynoing them all and selling off all but the best 3 engines. The spec deal will work somewhat but in the end the money will rule. Just look at cylinder heads in Stock now. One thing for certain, we can't turn the clock back, the technology has gotten us in this vicious circle and is just part of it. After my car was stolen I haven't raced the last 2 years and am currently working on returning. IT won't be a top qualifier but should still be fun. My driving will probably be the biggest thing that will keep me from winning much. And as far as the bracket racing/class deal. That is one of things I like best about Stock and Super Stock. You can still bracket race em if you like and that makes it all look like a better choice to me. Just look at Beard and his program.

[Rick Leininger Jr.]

Originally Posted by Rick Leininger Jr.

Originally Posted by Billy Nees
You've tried 3 cars in one class and was continually trumped? Either you're a poor judge of combos or you need a new engine builder.

Dick, what one class and what were the three car/engine combos?

Dick, I think you missed this?

[Dick Butler]

[QUOTE=Rick Leininger Jr.;477453]Dick, I think you missed this?[/QUOTE0

Nope, SS/LA 350 chevelle, then 283 chevy II and the 400 Pontiacs dominated till they left the class( one Pontiac guy waved good bye to George Cureton in class) My skills were developing as I learned from these cars. Hopefully with the help of my engine builder Ralph Truppi for more than 20 plus years I learned a lot. We discussed our cars and technology Daily long distance. It paid off. My work at the track meshed well with his engines and we were very successful in class and occasionally in eliminator too.

[rognelson777]

amazing how our memories work, Ponder this, in 1972 would you be complaining your 15 year old 1957 chevy 327 fuel injected is not competitive with a 3 year old 1969 z 28. What do you think? Sorry, do not know what 2 cars back then were in the same class, just a guess. Maybe Larry Hill can give us a comparison because he was probably #1 qualifier at Indy that year

[Rick Leininger Jr.]

[quote=Dick Butler;477463]

Originally Posted by Rick Leininger Jr.

Dick, I think you missed this?[/QUOTE0

Nope, SS/LA 350 chevelle, then 283 chevy II and the 400 Pontiacs dominated till they left the class( one Pontiac guy waved good bye to George Cureton in class) My skills were developing as I learned from these cars. Hopefully with the help of my engine builder Ralph Truppi for more than 20 plus years I learned a lot. We discussed our cars and technology Daily long distance. It paid off. My work at the track meshed well with his engines and we were very successful in class and occasionally in eliminator too.

At one time you changed combos in order to stay competitive in your class of choice, why are you against doing that now?

[goinbroke2]

Originally Posted by Dick Butler

WOW you are still missing it. The winner of the two guys is the one with the more bogus motor factor unless they have the Same motor and car. SSM classes are exceptions.
I am not racing but watching how the racing class portion of Stk and SS has issues.
And Costs continue to be discussed. Why not limit the changes back to a basic car all can afford. Then the guy who works hardest and drives the smartest at least has a chance of winning.

No Dick, you are missing it, the winner is the guy with the more disposable income. Either one can build your so called "bogus" car. So that's not the factor that effects everything, the guy with the most money wins in a heads up race..every time...and the poorer guy either switches classes so he can race or he goes home early or...doesn't show up at all because he knows he can't affort the $$$$converter or heads or whatever with the mortgage etc.
Everybody has their own situation, some bracket race until they can afford a class car, then they keep on bracket racing it (a bit under the index) until they make it quick enough to run heads up. That takes time, effort and MONEY. The guy that doesn't have the money to be the big dog will change classes or whatever to avoid an instant loss.
Others, same situation but can afford to try and be one of the big dogs. Might work, might not but they try. Then you have the guys with the money, they can be the big dog, they just fork over more $$ when they lose until, HEY! they're the big dog now.

So you know what, lots of people are saying they are bracket racing their stocker because that's what suits them for whatever their reasons are. Due to their situations, they will never agree to a heads up only style of racing. They don't believe class racing is dying because they're waiting in line for hours to get through the gate.

Your line "Then the guy who works hardest and drives the smartest " that is still true, YOU just have to realise that the guy working the hardest on his combo might not be the fastest in his class. When I look at the 180* headers billy made with his own two hands for an oddball combo and compare that to the $$$$ kooks headers that somebody bought for their #1 qualifying car...I know who's "working the hardest" and it ain't the "bigdog".

EDIT: and if you want to limit the car choices so everybody has the same combo so "Then the guy who works hardest and drives the smartest" I hate to tell you but not everybody wants a cookie cutter car. And certainly nobody wants to see a few classes of all the same car racing.

[randy wilson]

Originally Posted by Ron Middleton

Dick,
I fully understand what you're getting at but wasn't that pretty much the initial idea of Super Modified? I have never seen crate motors work in oval track racing as I ran the Parts Pro Truck Series for almost 5 years about the same JC Beattie was running. They introduced crate motors and it all went to hell in a hand bag. What keeps someone with money from buying 10 motors, dynoing them all and selling off all but the best 3 engines. The spec deal will work somewhat but in the end the money will rule. Just look at cylinder heads in Stock now. One thing for certain, we can't turn the clock back, the technology has gotten us in this vicious circle and is just part of it. After my car was stolen I haven't raced the last 2 years and am currently working on returning. IT won't be a top qualifier but should still be fun. My driving will probably be the biggest thing that will keep me from winning much. And as far as the bracket racing/class deal. That is one of things I like best about Stock and Super Stock. You can still bracket race em if you like and that makes it all look like a better choice to me. Just look at Beard and his program.

I never ran true Stock or SS anything. Always hood scoop cars. The reason? I don't think I was quite smart enough to venture there. Way too many combos to figure out, plus knowing the grey areas. But I don't believe the combos would have gotten out of control had there not been quite so many to choose from. No way NHRA or IHRA could possibly catch everything under that scenario. Dick and I don't always agree on the heads up deal, but we don't get angry over it either. He thinks a sealed crate motor would work, I don't. I think the Brodix deal is better. Only because it works in circle track, and crate motors don't. We were just presenting the idea to bring that notion into SS as an alternative, but hardly a slow class. Just a tad cheaper. Without the fear of a new head coming out next year. I truly don't see, with all the new classes it would disrupt anything. As far as the guy with the most dollars winning, I witnessed an engine locally in a 69 Camaro no more then $7,000 actual dollars in it outrun a well known Comp/SS engine builders $28,000 dollar engine in this exact same scenario. It was close, but the guy on social security disability limited budget, (he wasn't driving, by the way) won by .002. In the biggest race of the year. Both cars were torn down, both were 100 percent legal.

[SStockDart]

Originally Posted by randy wilson

I never ran true Stock or SS anything. Always hood scoop cars. The reason? I don't think I was quite smart enough to venture there. Way too many combos to figure out, plus knowing the grey areas. But I don't believe the combos would have gotten out of control had there not been quite so many to choose from. No way NHRA or IHRA could possibly catch everything under that scenario. Dick and I don't always agree on the heads up deal, but we don't get angry over it either. He thinks a sealed crate motor would work, I don't. I think the Brodix deal is better. Only because it works in circle track, and crate motors don't. We were just presenting the idea to bring that notion into SS as an alternative, but hardly a slow class. Just a tad cheaper. Without the fear of a new head coming out next year. I truly don't see, with all the new classes it would disrupt anything. As far as the guy with the most dollars winning, I witnessed an engine locally in a 69 Camaro no more then $7,000 actual dollars in it outrun a well known Comp/SS engine builders $28,000 dollar engine in this exact same scenario. It was close, but the guy on social security disability limited budget, (he wasn't driving, by the way) won by .002. In the biggest race of the year. Both cars were torn down, both were 100 percent legal.

$7,000 engine out run a $28,000 engine....really????