Poking the Bear Ford Performance Products

[Jim D'Amore]

Originally Posted by DrJRacing

The old saying “something is wrong in Dodge” comes to mind as I read
this. If one owns one or more 5.4/4.0L 2008, 2010, or 2012 Cobra Jets,
your incentives for developing your racing program, or someone you were considering for driver/ sponsorship, are more limited. So are the resale value of these cars. Just simple, provable observations.
Douglas Jonak 🇺🇸

Doug,


Funny you say that, Mike D. worked for Dodge for 30 years and if you want free stuff from Ford you have to own a Dodge, race a Dodge, or build Dodge/Mopar engines.


Jim D'Amore

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

kdanner,


The 5.4L 4.0L has been legal in stock for over 3 years. It was just recognized and put in the guide this year. But 3 years ago you could have raced this combination. As for the 5.4L 4.0L in showdown, it was on the books for 30 days. NHRA didn't post it for 2 weeks after it was approved so it was made viewable to the public for about 2 weeks. Roger Allen didn't like it so Mike D. took it off.


If you spent 8 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in R&D work on your 5.4L 4.0L combination why in the world would you put the 5.0L in play? It just doesn't make sense for those who want to run their original 5.4L combination. You can put a 2016 crate motor in a 10 or 12 SCJ car and run it in the showdown but you couldn't run the original 5.4L combination it came with.


Why would Mike D. take a legal stock eliminator combination out of the showdown guide? I asked him face to face and he could not give me an answer. I even asked his boss last night and he still hasn't given me an answer. It is a legal stock eliminator combination, the showdown class is stock eliminator.


Jim D'Amore

The show down class is NOT Stock Eliminator! It is a Special Run class that is allowed to run in the Stock Eliminator Category.

[Jim D'Amore]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

The show down class is NOT Stock Eliminator! It is a Special Run class that is allowed to run in the Stock Eliminator Category.

I don't know the difference but I do know NHRA calls it Stock Eliminator Showdown class. Even when it's announced, it's presented as Stock Eliminator showdown class. It started it's life in Stock Eliminator and the engine combinations are in the Stock Eliminator guide. If you take your Showdown Stock Eliminator car to a divisional race you can run it in Stock Eliminator. So every FS Stock Eliminator engine combination is legal expect for the Ford 5.4L 4.0L and the GM 327 4.0L combination. Mike D. and Roger Allen made that happen.


Jim D'Amore

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

I don't know the difference but I do know NHRA calls it Stock Eliminator Showdown class. Even when it's announced, it's presented as Stock Eliminator showdown class. It started it's life in Stock Eliminator and the engine combinations are in the Stock Eliminator guide. If you take your Showdown Stock Eliminator car to a divisional race you can run it in Stock Eliminator. So every FS Stock Eliminator engine combination is legal expect for the Ford 5.4L 4.0L and the GM 327 4.0L combination. Mike D. and Roger Allen made that happen.


Jim D'Amore

Yeah, some folks have been getting away with calling it Stock but it's not. They snuck these cars into Stock Eliminator by calling them a special production run. None of them were showroom production cars.

[stang321]

as an outside observer that's works in a dealership the answer to your question is far simpler than it may appear Ford has no desire to see a mustang win a "Factory Showdown Shootout" with an engine they no longer produce. no mustangs will be sold on Monday from a 5.4 win on Sunday diehard racers care but upper management just wont see the benefit

[Brett C]

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

I don't know the difference but I do know NHRA calls it Stock Eliminator Showdown class. Even when it's announced, it's presented as Stock Eliminator showdown class. It started it's life in Stock Eliminator and the engine combinations are in the Stock Eliminator guide. If you take your Showdown Stock Eliminator car to a divisional race you can run it in Stock Eliminator. So every FS Stock Eliminator engine combination is legal expect for the Ford 5.4L 4.0L and the GM 327 4.0L combination. Mike D. and Roger Allen made that happen.


Jim D'Amore

For accuracy purposes, NHRA’s term is Factory Stock Showdown. And it is it’s own class/eliminator.

[JHeath]

Originally Posted by stang321

as an outside observer that's works in a dealership the answer to your question is far simpler than it may appear Ford has no desire to see a mustang win a "Factory Showdown Shootout" with an engine they no longer produce. no mustangs will be sold on Monday from a 5.4 win on Sunday diehard racers care but upper management just wont see the benefit

There is nobody on the planet who is buying a 5.0 Mustang on monday after watching a FSS Mustang win on sunday. Maybe that was the case 50 years ago.

[kdanner]

First off 2 different things Jim. DrJRacing said things are "more limited", when we know this year they are less limited than ever before.

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

kdanner,


The 5.4L 4.0L has been legal in stock for over 3 years. It was just recognized and put in the guide this year. But 3 years ago you could have raced this combination.

I'll just have to take your word for that I guess, but in reviewing the latest stats for this year and the end of year stats for last year, no one raced one in stock eliminator.

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

As for the 5.4L 4.0L in showdown, it was on the books for 30 days. NHRA didn't post it for 2 weeks after it was approved so it was made viewable to the public for about 2 weeks. Roger Allen didn't like it so Mike D. took it off.

I'm aware it was posted as legal, for a very short time in the winter when there were no races, then removed. So, no one ever raced one. If someone spent money on one during that period, it's unfortunate. I agree that shouldn't have been made legal then not in short order. I think most would agree that it doesn't belong there when for years it was a SS only combo, just like the the 327/4.0 doesn't belong there either.

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

If you spent 8 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in R&D work on your 5.4L 4.0L combination why in the world would you put the 5.0L in play? It just doesn't make sense for those who want to run their original 5.4L combination. You can put a 2016 crate motor in a 10 or 12 SCJ car and run it in the showdown but you couldn't run the original 5.4L combination it came with.

1. Who are you talking about? Again, I find no record of the 5.4/4.0 ever racing in stock eliminator. I hope you aren't talking about a Superstock car.
2. They can run their original 5.4/TVS combination, with weight break, everyone knows that.

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

Why would Mike D. take a legal stock eliminator combination out of the showdown guide? I asked him face to face and he could not give me an answer. I even asked his boss last night and he still hasn't given me an answer. It is a legal stock eliminator combination, the showdown class is stock eliminator.

Don't you think the very simple answer to that is the 4.0L blower, when the current situation is all 3 brands running a 2.9 blower and running close together? I don't think anyone wants the potential to revisit anything like the old days of Pro Stock where lead trophies had to be handed out in attempts to constantly level the playing field.

[Tom Dolan]

The only reason it was not in stock when it came out, there was no weight break for it to fit into. There was no FS/AA class. I don't know, but i don't think the 5.4 combo is better than a 5.2 just because the sc is bigger. I also don’t think most will agree when you say most will agree...duh. Its in the guide so I don’t know what your point is. This thread is about ford giving then taking it back for un know reasons. I wish someone from ford would come on here and tells us why, is that to much to ask.


5.2 Combo
bore 3.631 stroke 3.649
Piston- dome 12.5 CR
Cam- .590 lift
Throttle body- bigger than the 5.4
Valves- 2 -1.513 2 -1.285
RPM 9000 rpm+
supercharger 2.9 pulley size 3.25 inch
ram air front entrance supercharger

5.4 Combo
bore 3.553 stroke 4.166
piston- flat 10.5 cr
cam- lift .473
Throttle body smaller than the 5.2
valves- 2 -1.462 2 -1.265
rpm 8200+
supercharger 4.0 pulley size 4 inch
no ram air rear entrance super charger

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by Tom Dolan

The only reason it was not in stock when it came out, there was no weight break for it to fit into. There was no FS/AA class. I don't know, but i don't think the 5.4 combo is better than a 5.2 just because the sc is bigger. I also don’t think most will agree when you say most will agree...duh. Its in the guide so I don’t know what your point is. This thread is about ford giving then taking it back for un know reasons. I wish someone from ford would come on here and tells us why, is that to much to ask.


5.2 Combo
bore 3.631 stroke 3.649
Piston- dome 12.5 CR
Cam- .590 lift
Throttle body- bigger than the 5.4
Valves- 2 -1.513 2 -1.285
RPM 9000 rpm+
supercharger 2.9 pulley size 3.25 inch
ram air front entrance supercharger

5.4 Combo
bore 3.553 stroke 4.166
piston- flat 10.5 cr
cam- lift .473
Throttle body smaller than the 5.2
valves- 2 -1.462 2 -1.265
rpm 8200+
supercharger 4.0 pulley size 4 inch
no ram air rear entrance super charger

Which class does your car currently fit?