Factory experimental

[Bruce Noland]

Alan,
You're right. I just checked again. MPR's post came right after one of your posts and assumed he was responding to your post. Wrong.

[Bruce Noland]

Guys,
These CJ's don't represent any great change in the way nhra is going to run their "show." This deal looks to be a cash'n carry deal. Sure nhra will publicize the CJ's but there will be little exposure for the rest of the category. Top Stock and Junior Stock are prime examples of what can happen to a class when the fast cars take over. It dies!

This CJ deal is different than finding out a killer car has slipped through the cracks of the ahfs. Currently, a killer car in any class may be 20 horsepower soft and prehaps nobody saw it coming until a racer looked at the sheets and said wow this looks good. More power to him/her. And usually there are only a couple of these killer cars sprinkled around the country and they are raced by blue collar sportsman racers. No, this CJ deal is about a car that can roll off the trailer and run below a very tough national record on it's first attempt at a serious test'n tune. This car is not 20 or even 30 horsepower soft. It is 80 to 100 horsepower soft. It is so soft that Ford won't produce any horsepower numbers in writing. They are marketing an ultra high tech, Injected/Supercharged car and don't want to produce a dyno sheet for nhra to see. Nobody should be able to walk into nhra and say well the car may be a little bit soft but the ahfs will correct the numbers. That would be a fraudulent proposition and should never be allowed. And these cars will run all over the country; with more of them coming out this fall. Like most of the racers on this site, I can't wait to see them run in person. Some of these CJ's have a great team owner who wants to run these cars all over the country and I'm darn happy to have him, but he needs to run his cars in the right classes. Running these Rockets against 40 year old cars just doesn't work and I think the public will figure that out as well. Ford and nhra will come away from this current deal with a lot of bad press. Obviously nhra and Ford can do pretty much what they want but both should be careful about what they are asking for because they may just get it.

From what we have learned so far, this car has been able to slip bye nhra's vetting process or nhra is going plug this car into regular classes without seriously studying it's performance. It's not a difficult excersise to put these cars into classes where they can be evaluated and yet still enjoy all the pleasures of class racing in Stock Eliminator.

[art leong]

I wonder if there was an internet forum back in the mid 1950's. What we would be looking at? All the flathead guys screaming about those evil overhead valve motors?
In the 70's we had 2 years a go fast racing. In division 1 there was the Hershlow and Morlock Pontiac firebird super duty 455. (You could not get parts for the motor without a vin number). It was factored at some rediculously low number. And could run a week under. They were not in our class but, this was go fast racing. They had a stock eliminator race every week at Englishtown. And the only time we stood a shot at winning was when they were not there.
We belly-ached about them a bit (everybody did). But we worked our butts off and learned a lot of invaluable info. Now REMEMBER I said worked our butts off not spent our butts off.
Back then nhra had a 10 year rule on stockers. Think about how many stockers there would be now if they had kept that rule in force. Then I could see a true top stock (rwd cars) and a jr stock (fwd cars)
The Mustangs Camaros and Firebirds etc. would be running each other. and the SLOW (turd) cars could run each other. That would have cut the number of classes (to make a lot of you very happy} Kept factory involvement ( 10 year rule).
I'm not advocating a change like this but this is what could have been. All this complaining could lead to something you really don't want.
It seems like easiest way to beat someone is on the keyboard, not on the race track. When I ran the turbo cars, people lambasted them (and still do) I posted exactly how to make them run for very little expense. No black-magic, hocus pocus, hide it in the trailer stuff. Still many of you said I shouldn't be allowed to race. Even though my car was more "stock" than any out there. It was fine to come rolling into the track with a $100,000 "A" stocker in a tractor trailer rig. But "Arties" $2000 car should be banned.
I think these "new" cars will dominate the class for a while. Didn't the LT 1's do the same?

[Bruce Noland]

Art,
You are right they will dominate for awhile. How long is awhile? None of us know. 10 or 12 years later and the Lt1's are still tough. Why shouldn't a car be properly factored from the beginning? And you can bet your bottom dollar that the racers from the 50s would have been all over the Internet if it had been available to them. Human nature hasn't changed.

[Bruce Noland]

Alan, Billy and Len,
All very good points.

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Art,
You are right they will dominate for awhile. How long is awhile? None of us know. 10 or 12 years later and the Lt1's are still tough. Why shouldn't a car be properly factored from the beginning? And you can bet your bottom dollar that the racers from the 50s would have been all over the Internet if it had been available to them. Human nature hasn't changed.

Bruce what I was refering to was that when the overhead valve cars came in to play the sport changed, multivalve heads and compressed air are here to stay. They aren't a passing fancy. Do you realize how many street driven (for real) 9 second cars are out there
A couple of days ago I bought a shortblock from a guy with a Neon, he was from Florida, I am from Georgia, So we met in the middle. The car he drove to bring the motor to me is his daily driver, it had a cage and a parachute, as well as a NO/2 bottle. I thought this was one of those showy type cars. WRONG . Well he runs mid 9's at 145 mph That isn't going to happen easily with the 2 valve N/A cars.
Just like the overhead valve motors took over from the flatheads. It seems like we all want progress but only if it suits our needs.

[Bruce Noland]

Art,
"we all want progress when it suits our needs"?? No, I think most of us want equitable progress. We are not trying to be selfish. Check the blue print sheets on the 425/500 motors; if you haven't already.

[art leong]

Do you guys remember Prostock in the 70's with the factoring for the Hemi, the canted valve motor, the inline valve motor. the short wheels base the long wheel base, Etc.
Well that all got started with the Grump griping about the hemi's (not saying the man wasn't a genius at drag racing). And the hemi's coming back at them with wheelbase. etc.
It got to be a mess remember the Tiajuana Taxi? (I personally liked it better back then)
It's not new by any stretch of the imagineation that the factories maniplulate the numbers back before you could change classes or add or subract weight. the weight breaks were usually right on an even number the 1970 challenger r/t convertible fell right on 8.50 at 440 horsepower. Coincidence???? I think not.
On the GM side, Bobby Warren woud get factored and just change body style. What about the Ford pencil cars?
This whole thing is nothing new it's just an updated version.

[Dick Butler]

This conversation always seems to deteriorate with personal agenda items with the overal good of the Sportsman racing considered LAST.
Bracket mentality on one side adds its concerns and "Right to race" idea held by racers from the edges of the rule book and Spec sheets.
People ask for the "RIGHT to race" this or that combination and are allowed to do so. People push their issues. Cheap combination to race at a NATIONAL event, A points meet or wherever. Some want to win class over similar cars by being smarter, better driver or .... Then the MONEY card is played.
Can ALL the racers be made happy? A resounding NO is the answer. NHRA looks at ITS GOAL for Sportsman racers and just DO IT. That is what the racers miss is they are doing just that. They own the tracks , hold the events and racers KNOW the rules, Know how it progresses and with computers can just keep stirring up sentiment Pro or Con NHRA.
SRAC was an example. Formed It . Didnt like what it had to say . IGNORED IT. Until a new owner or financially powerful group forms a group with THEIR agenda and SET RULES and FORCE conformity to them dont expect NHRA to listen...seriously.
Now everyone is upset because new blood is coming into Stk or SS. Many 1/2 stories or 3rd hand information. Poor motor choices by the factory, poor tech expected.
What has changed? NOTHING People just have computers..
I hope someone can encourage a change from the top. I know Len tried.
Maybe the Factory input and enticement will help for a while....

[MPR]

Len is correct, the American Muscle class concept was proposed to the NHRA as a place to showcase the new Camaro, Mustang and Challenger using current production power plants. This class was however intended for Super Stock not Stock. The push from the big 3 for such a class had died off a bit since GM racing has cancelled its Stock/Super Stock 09 Camaro program and Fred Simmonds has retired.
I still just don’t see why the NHRA would create a special class in Stock for the Mustang when they fit naturally into A/S & AA/S. The 425 HP Modular Ford motor is 330 cu. in. and that’s a far cry from the 427s it may be racing against. It has been classified by the NHRA and they also see no reason to add a special class because they are Stock. These are not paper or pencil cars as you can plainly see in George Wrights earlier post. Until this combination show a clear cut superiority at the races (not hear say or rumors) I think the case is closed.
I race a GT/EA Grand Am with an injected motor. There are still guys complaining about having to race against injection. The US car manufactures have been using injection exclusively for more than 2 decades. Might just make more sense to separate the 40 year old cars from the new cars by the racers that don’t think they can compete with the new. Nostalgia? What made Stock so cool in the 60s were new Stockers of all brands racing against each other. I don’t remember ever seeing any 40 year old stocker in the 60s at any National Events.
I wonder why anyone would edit their thread. Last night after I got home from Varsity Fords Cobra Jet delivery gathering I read a post indicting Ford has given these Cobra Jets to selected racers for free. I posted :
________________________________________
FREE??? Someones handing you a line of s***. a CJ Mustang is 70K and no one got anything for free!

Why did the post I was responding to get edited? Just a couple of post earlier the FREE word was being used and now it’s gone! This thread has lost all its credibility and I think I’ll just read it for the pure entertainment value as it is pretty much a joke and filled with untruths. If you are 100% sure the new Mustang is going to kick your butt then keep posting BS like you have. I guess whenever the Challenger shows up the same guys will be at it again. I wonder if a thread to get rid of the whiners would be cool, on second thought it would most likely get edited as well.
Well I’m done trying to post the facts; I’ll just read and have fun doing it. It was great to see Len Imbrogno is still reading this stuff, Len, give me a call sometime and we can get caught up! In the mean time you can keep in mind one of the signs of getting old is the reluctance to accept the new. Do you still listen to 60s music? I do but it’s oldies just like the cars you think your fighting for. Time to face it, it’s 2009!