2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock

[Tim Kish]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

Tim your putting a spin on the issue by citing what's not factory about Stock Eliminator vehicles. It should be clear I'm making a point that this CJ500 package is just that, a package and it is nothing that is available from Ford for use by the public on public roads. You can not walk into any Ford dealership and buy a Mustang with a 5.4L SC engine and drive away with car and license plates and insurance. And Stock Eliminator has ALWAYS been to showcase what is possible with factory produced, legal for street use vehicles. I can't think of ANY exceptions over the last 50+ years. Shelby offers a 5.4L SC engine so that is perfectly acceptable.

Jeff you have a misperception about the current Ford Shelby GT500 Mustang. This is a fully Ford produced car (8000+/yr are built) built on the standard Mustang assembly line this vehicle comes as you know with a 5.4L S/C engine built on a Ford assembly line. The Shelby name on this car is only badging.

[bill dedman]

Jeff Lee wrote: "And Stock Eliminator has ALWAYS been to showcase what is possible with factory produced, legal for street use vehicles. I can't think of ANY exceptions over the last 50+ years."

Well, not to muddy the water here, but tell me, Jeff; how many 1967 Shelby GT500s have you encountered on the street EVER, with one 4 barrel carburetor (to say nothing of the optional heads and cam they are running in Stock, all with the blessing of the NHRA Tech dept.)????????

Just answer me that, please... or, this: Did you ever see an advertisment, brochure, road test, or any other place IN PRINT, that would confirm that these cars were ever built and sold to the general public? Not one shred of evidence of any kind, have I ever seen... have you?

I was a tech inspector handling Stock and Super Stock at my local drag strip in 1967 (Des Moines Dragway) and I had the Class. Guide and received all the "tech bulletins" from NHRA and I never EVER saw one printed word about these '67 single 4bbl GT500's. I asked the GT500 registrar at a national Shelby club as to the number of single 4bbl '67 GT500s built, and he basically told me I was crazy; that there were none built; they all had dual quads and 390 heads.

Now, I am aware of "the letter" and I am not calling into question the legality of these cars. Not at all. NHRA has made them legal, they have raced, and it's a done deal...

But, you mentioned, "Stock Eliminator has ALWAYS been to showcase what is possible with factory produced, legal for street use vehicles. I can't think of ANY exceptions over the last 50+ years."

Would this not be an exception?

Just playing Devil's advocate, here... I think they belong in Super Stock... Why? Because the mph these cars seem capable of is indicative of a horsepower output that, when properly factored, will be beyond the scope of AA/S (7.5 pounds-per-cubic inch)...
but, then, nobody asked me... LOL!

Bill

[Bruce Noland]

Tim,
I think you know better than that. Let's put the CJ on a dyno. I have already suggested that we put other top performers on the dyno at the same time. We can do that. You get a race ready CJ and we'll be glad to produce other cars for comparison. We are not afraid of comparing our cars. Why hide with the CJ? Steve at Ford Racing Parts said the CJ motor made 680 Horsepower right off the engine builders engine stand. He also said that with more tuning and racing fuel the motor was capable of 750 Horsepower. His words. That is 125 Horsepower more than the very best big block motor. This CJ motor is also rated at 85 nhra Horsepower less that the 281 motor that is rated at 510. Why won't you guys bring this car out and put it on the Dyno? None of the supporters of this car deny that it is putting out huge Horsepower numbers and Steve at Ford Racing Parts said they would not publish the actual numbers because they didn't want nhra to know how much power the motor made. Why run from this issue? Just put a race ready car on the dyno. In fact I'm going to call Hot Rod today and ask them to do it. Nobody knows what their response will be but their name is connected with this car now and it may prove to be a very interesting article.

[ss3845]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Tim,
I think you know better than that. Let's put the CJ on a dyno. I have already suggested that we put other top performers on the dyno at the same time. We can do that. You get a race ready CJ and we'll be glad to produce other cars for comparison. We are not afraid of comparing our cars. Why hide with the CJ? Steve at Ford Racing Parts said the CJ motor made 680 Horsepower right off the engine builders engine stand. He also said that with more tuning and racing fuel the motor was capable of 750 Horsepower. His words. That is 125 Horsepower more than the very best big block motor. This CJ motor is also rated at 85 nhra Horsepower less that the 281 motor that is rated at 510. Why won't you guys bring this car out and put it on the Dyno? None of the supporters of this car deny that it is putting out huge Horsepower numbers and Steve at Ford Racing Parts said they would not publish the actual numbers because they didn't want nhra to know how much power the motor made. Why run from this issue? Just put a race ready car on the dyno. In fact I'm going to call Hot Rod today and ask them to do it. Nobody knows what their response will be but their name is connected with this car now and it may prove to be a very interesting article.

What do you want NHRA to do once they get a dyno number?

[Evan Smith]

There is so much sandbagging in Stock that no one really knows what any car is capable of. Virtually every fast racer has 'bagged in one way or another. It doesn't matter whether you lift, hit the brakes, switch classes, run heavy, etc. etc., sandbagging is sandbagging.

Not showing your hand, whether on track or with under-rating engines has been a part of Stock since its inception. Unless racers run there cars balls-to-the wall all the time (which we all know won't happen), we will never really know how much power any engine makes, how fast we can go, or what the REAL factors should be. In time, just like with other combos, we will see what the CJ can do. I agree that the CJ is underrated, but so were/are many, many other engines.

With that, why should CJ racers be the only ones to have published hp figures or hp figures known to NHRA? NHRA is not going to purchase every combo to determine its real output. Do it for one, do it for all! Doing chassis dyno tests won't work either because it is nearly impossible to extract good data with slipper clutches and/or loose converters. I know this first-hand.

Lastly, the idea that Ford or Ford Racing paid NHRA money on the sly to approve this combo is inaccurate. While I am certainly not privy to all inner workings and meetings, I can tell you that Brian Wolfe (Director of Ford Racing) and his team would sooner race elsewhere than to "slide" NHRA money for anything. I tire of hearing these silly accusations by the uninformed who are fishing for something to bitch about. There have been some valid points made about this CJ topic by Bruce and others, but some of the crap is just plain idiotic. With all the new high-hp cars on the horizon perhaps it's time for lighter weight breaks. We need more proactive "tuning" of the rules by NHRA. I totally respect the concerns of those with the proverbial "dog-in-the-fight," but some of the statements made by grown men are childish, uninformed and made by the same old nay-sayers who never have a positive thing to say about anything. Stock is far from perfect, but if this form of racing is so bad then quit crying and go fishing.

Evan

[Evan Smith]

Ed F.,

You can look at the engine specs on line and see the differences, but in a nutshell, the CJ has less compression by a full point (which is a big deal even with a blower), smaller valves, smaller cams and smaller throttle body.

Evan

[Fred Popov]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

Ed F.,

You can look at the engine specs on line and see the differences, but in a nutshell, the CJ has less compression by a full point (which is a big deal even with a blower), smaller valves, smaller cams and smaller throttle body.

Evan

Evan,

I looked up the blueprint specs for the 07 GT500 and the 08 CJ and I don't see the differences that you are talking about. (Specs don't have a GT500 for 08) The valves are the same size. The TB is 2x62mm for both. Compression is only 0.12 less due to a slightly greater deck height. But yes, the cam is smaller in the CJ. Am I looking at a different spec. than you?
Thanks for clarifying...
Fred




500 330(S) 9.5 EFI FORD RF7R3V-9K461 lower 1.81 H/R 48.0 B,2
500 330 .059 Dish .128” 13.5 cc 2@1456/2@1259 468/468 .037 Beehive


425 330 9.38 Supercharged EATON RF7R3Z-9K461 1.8 H/R 48.0 B,3,4
425 330 .074 Dish .118” 13.5 cc 2@1456/2@1259 413/413 .037 Beehive

[Bruce Noland]

Evan,
I think we deserve more than what is being offered here. We have seen a lot of spin from the CJ camp as well. But no one on your side wants to talk about the real numbers the CJ motor is making. You can't say that we are not prepared to put our cars up to the same scrutiny that we seek for the CJ. In short the spinning about this car needs to stop. This car is a dramatic departure from any thing that has ever been allowed in Stock and we need to know more about it. Even if the Ford folks want to tag team us with spin and nhra doesn't want to do their job.

I'm going to email several magazines today and explain the situation and ask them to consider latching on to one of these cars. Then tune it up and dyno it. What do I want nhra to do with the Horsepower numbers that may come out of any dyno session? Well, I want them to do their darn jobs. That's what.

I'm not sure about this but I believe Chrysler tried to get the so-called NASCAR Hemi approved at 410 and NHRA bumped it up 20 Horsepower. Apparently they didn't take the manufacturers advice on that one. Why are they doing it with Ford? And why are you guys so unwilling to post the numbers on this car. Most of the racers know what to expect from a maxed out 396, 426, 427 and 428. But we know nothing about your little CJ motor. And nhra should know what this motor is making and they don't. The shame will be on them for not knowing.

[ss3845]

Your still not answering the question as to what you want NHRA to do once they have the number. Do you want them to adjust the HP rating to the results of the test? That would only be fair if your willing to have YOUR combo adjusted also. The combos you talk about are making at least twice the HP than is in the guide. Do you want them adjusted also? What your asking is never going to happen anyway. And the comment about not having a dog in the fight doesn't hold water unless your debuting a new car.

[Fred Popov]

Please, whatever you do, don't force the CJ into Super Stock. It belongs in Stock just like the GT500 that IS a production car. I want to see what it is capable of before its rearend gets chopped up for bigger wheels and before wild cams and intake manifolds get stuffed into it.

I am not saying that the 425 hp is not too low and it definitely should be factored appropriately. From the pictures that I have seen under the hood of these cars, there is a lot of power left there. I see that the power steering pump is on and so is the crank driven water pump. I also see some emission stuff like the crankcase ventilation going to the intake. 500 hp just like the GT500 is not unreasonable.
Someone also mentioned reorganizing the classes so that the A class starts at 5.0 or 6.0instead of 8.0....Great idea!