GM axes performance division

[Roger K Fain]

If the American manufacturers want Americans to purchase their vehicles from them, then they need to take the first step and close their assembly plants in Canada, Mexico, and Australia. Just a few of the vehicles assembled by American companies in other countries:
PT Cruiser..Mexico
Pontiac GTO..Australia
Ford EDGE..Ontario, Canada
Buick Lacross.. Canada
Chevrolet Camaro..Canada
" Equinox "
" Impala "
" Silverado "
" Sierra "
GMC Terrain "
There are many more examples from all of the BIG 3. If we are going to "bail" them out, then they need to spend our money in America.

[Steve Williams]

Michael Lyons-You get it.
Michael Beard-You obviously don't. If you think for a minute that GM going under won't effect your life then you have not looked at all the facts. Maybe only in the smallest of ways but it will have an effect. Glenn Beck won't tell you the whole story but he will tell a story none the less. I guess if you are not a GM guy then we should have the opinion "Aw screw them guys-they did it to themselves". Does anybody realize the impact that the Mortgage, loan and banking industry has on the economy? 700 billion and 150 billion for a total of 850 billion and it was given to these people without question. The automakers on the other hand got bent over the rail and fornicated without grease for asking for what essentially is 34 billion. Staggering numbers for sure. But where is the complaining about the mortgage, loan and banking people? I am not hearing how our lives are better because of their failure. Think about 300,000 plus people in the United States having to file for unemployment at the same time. What a financial drain. Are you going to feed a hot meal to a person or give them shelter for a night in your home when we hit rock bottom (thats what people did for other people in the Great Depression). I think that the answer is NO. That is what kind of country we have become it appears. I am pretty vocal about this issue as I live in the heart of the Big Three and have educated myself about this issue. Mr. Beard-the money for the Big Three is not a bailout like the banking industry. It is a bridge loan. Check it out. The info is on the internet.

Respectfully Submitted,

Steve Williams

[Michael Beard]

>> Lyons writes: Its not ALL the car companys fault. The $4 a gallon gas kinda exposed a flaw in the plan.

That's true, I agree. There was no reason for fuel to go that high in the first place, and it was one of the many cards that got kicked at the bottom of the house of cards that had been built for us.

>> Williams writes: If you think for a minute that GM going under won't effect your life then you have not looked at all the facts.

I understand that. It would. You've generated an argument that I didn't make in the first place. GM *not* going under would affect my life, too.

>> Does anybody realize the impact that the Mortgage, loan and banking industry has on the economy? 700 billion and 150 billion for a total of 850 billion and it was given to these people without question.

Yes! And many people fought tooth and nail against that mockery as well!

>> But where is the complaining about the mortgage, loan and banking people? I am not hearing how our lives are better because of their failure.

We've BEEN complaining! (the discussion has been taking place far longer and is much larger than this single discussion thread) There's no way to address your second part because the banking industry wasn't *allowed* to fail. It is being propped up. (with money that we don't have) Actually, these banking practices that were set into motion in the '70s never should have been allowed in the first place. Just another part of the house of cards.

>> the money for the Big Three is not a bailout like the banking industry. It is a bridge loan.

Yes, I know that. Sorry for using the popular semantics. It wasn't used to mislead anyone. I think most people understand that it's a loan. (made with money that we don't have) Bad businesses practices are still bad business practices, and we're going to give them more money before it's all over with. Unlike the loan to Chrysler years ago, I'm not optimistic about getting this money back. The interest on our national debt alone is going to bury us, and rampant inflation is coming around the corner.

Don't assume that because I didn't write an 1,100 pg dissertation (don't worry, Congress doesn't read anything that long either) and quantify every statement and mention every single angle on every economic-related topic that I'm ignorant of them.

It *is* okay if we disagree, but understand that I do have a rational basis for thinking the way I do, just as you do.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Roger K Fain

If the American manufacturers want Americans to purchase their vehicles from them, then they need to take the first step and close their assembly plants in Canada, Mexico, and Australia. Just a few of the vehicles assembled by American companies in other countries:
PT Cruiser..Mexico
Pontiac GTO..Australia
Ford EDGE..Ontario, Canada
Buick Lacross.. Canada
Chevrolet Camaro..Canada
" Equinox "
" Impala "
" Silverado "
" Sierra "
GMC Terrain "
There are many more examples from all of the BIG 3. If we are going to "bail" them out, then they need to spend our money in America.

Whoa down there! Like it or not this is a global economy. Likley 80% of the clothes you have on now while reading this are made in Asia or somewhere other than North America. The idea of having car plants in other countries is good for business. The trouble the domestic car companies arre having stem from more than any one specific source.
Just ask the new generation what they want to buy, likley they will tell you Honda,Toyota, Lexus,Mitsubishi,Mercedes. That thinking alone has taken its toll on the domestics.Alot of this thinking comes from the automotive media,they always seem to bash the domestics, even when they are the clear winner in some comparisons.The other part of that thinking is they want to be different than their parents who always had domestics.
Gas prices and insurance costs have not helped either.Try to insure a young male driver in a V8 Mustang or any of the same cars, you need to take out a new mortgage! I am from Canada, I do not work for any of the carmakers but in my business I do work in many of the plants. The quality of the work and the cleanliness of the plants is second to none!
Are there problems with upper management? I do not know for sure, I am not privy to that information. Do i think there is upper management problems? Yes there will be somewhere,any large corporation will have problems in management. All large companies have the "right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing" problems. But blaming where a vehicle is made or assembled is not the answer. Roger, I say this in the interest of good constructive converstaion, not as a personal attack OK.

Todd Melville
Melville Racing
1577 T/STK
1971 Boss 351 Mustang

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Todd

Whoa down there! Like it or not this is a global economy. Likley 80% of the clothes you have on now while reading this are made in Asia or somewhere other than North America. The idea of having car plants in other countries is good for business.

Todd,

As someone who is involved in the "Global Economy" as it relates to textiles on a day to day basis I can tell you that it is one of the worst things that ever happened to "Main Street America". It is all about the bottom line. I for one would like to see real "Free Trade". What we have now is a joke. For the record, I was working full time in Canada when free trade killed the industry there in the early 1990's.

Daren

[goinbroke2]

A buddy of mine still wears his NAFTA t shirt that depicts an eagle screwing a beaver. Both Canadian and americans think they got the shaft.
I personally think the issue is the fact that every other country has a VAT (Value Added Tax) except the States and Canada on most products.
Example:

It cost $15,000 to build a car in north america and you sell it for $20,000 you make $5,000

In other countries though it only cost $10,000 to build, $1,000 to ship and sell for $15,000 making $4,000 and undercutting the very economy you ship to!

Here's what's worse, cost $15,000 to build in NA, $1,000 to ship to asia/europe and add 25% VAT = $20,000 which doesn't include any profit!! Remember they built for $10,000? That is one reason toyota shipped 1.3 million veh to the US last year and combined the domestic's sold around 400 vehicles in Japan!

Free market is great, however it's not a free market when other countries have "taxes" put on your goods and you don't on theirs.
Immediately, Canada and the US should put a VAT on products which brings the price of a product shipped into the country up to par with what it would cost to produce said product here. THEN it would be a pair of cars/pens/shirts for the same price and people would choose what they wanted. Would YOU choose a shirt from thailand with their quality/durability/materials if it cost the same as one made here?? I certainly wouldn't.
(As an aside, there is a 25% tariff on trucks imported to the US, that's why toyota built the truck plant in texas where they ASSEMBLE trucks not BUILD them)

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Immediately, Canada and the US should put a VAT on products which brings the price of a product shipped into the country up to par with what it would cost to produce said product here.

A VAT generally applies to all products sold the same as sales tax. In most countries that have a VAT it is added into the sticker price.

THEN it would be a pair of cars/pens/shirts for the same price and people would choose what they wanted.

In regards to textiles, the imported stuff has been selling for the same price as domestic stuff for years and the public really doesn't seem to care where it comes from. Wonder where the extra profit on that overseas stuff goes?

Would YOU choose a shirt from thailand with their quality/durability/materials if it cost the same as one made here?? I certainly wouldn't.

You probably do it every day and don't even realize it!


The problem with this whole auto industry deal is simple. Nobody is buying cars. Why not? Because they don't have jobs. Why don't they have jobs? Because we have allowed our manufacturing jobs to go overseas. Look around at who actually buys American made cars. It's not the bankers or politicians for the most part. It has traditionally been the same kind of people who support NASCAR and the NHRA. What is happening there these days? Kill NAFTA and CAFTA and prosperity will come back to the USA. Instead it looks like I am fixing to get a 5% tax hike!