M.g.

[Bob Don]

Bill - This is an interesting idea. Having run a U and V car for a number of years, I would have to concur that your idea has merit. It would definitely be a pretty simple programming change to make it work. This would make both cars work the tree rather than giving the fast one a free pass if the slower one were to redlight. I will say, however, that when you are in a slow car and you cut a good light and you're dissappearing down the track before the fast guy's tree comes down, it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the fast guy to cut a good light. Sometimes it's enough pressure for them to make a mistake. When I raced, I knew it was always first or worse and I accepted that. In the Summernationals one year, I was paired with Geroge Williams' Vega wagon. I was driving in U/SA and I was not used to giving anyone a head start. When I saw George about 50 yds out before my tree fell, I panicked and red lit big time!

[bill dedman]

Ed,

I'm sorry if I have overblown the importance of this situation up to beyond what it logically should be.

Like I said, the probability is, that nothing's going to happen anyway, so it's just a tempest in a teapot, most likely.

If NHRA actually effected this change, I'd probably just keel over..... LOL!

I was 25 when this present (First Red Light) system was enacted (1963.) Many years later, I was made aware of the lopsided way this system treats the racers by a friend who is obviously a LOT smarter than I am, because I'd been watching it for probably at least 30 years and had never seen anything wrong with it; it was what it was. Nobody complained.... so, I thought it was fine.... I raced my sedan delivery Stocker under it and it never occcurred to me that every time I ran a quicker car, I was being deprived of my right to pressure HIM into a red light, if I'd already red lighted... I GAVE him the round.... and was never the wiser. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, obviously!

But, the more I thought about it over the years, the more it seemed to need to change to give equal treatment to both cars... since they weren't GETTING equal treatment.

But, the amount of inertia that exists in the scheme of things where NHRA is concerned makes Mt. Everest look like a molehill, so it just kind of struggled along for years, with no one doing anything about it.

That's where we are, now.

Be that as it may, I'll never get over feeling that any car that leaves first on a handicap start, whether it's a W/SA car or an A/SA car, is not getting a fair shake on the tree with the current system. Both cars need to have the SAME CHANCE to red light, regardless of what the first car does. As it stands, they don't, if the first car leaves too soon.

If that isn't making the first car to leave a victim of the system, then I don't know of a better way to express it.


Thanks to everyone for your comments; this is a good example of what this board is for, I think... to give EVERYONE a chance to voice his/her opinion on issues like this.

You don't need to be a woman to be a good gynecologist, and you don't need to be racing to have a valid opinion about issues like this.... The racers have another board for discussing "racer-only" issues. I think ANYONE with an opinion should be welcome to discuss it here; otherwise, what's the other board for???

So, thanks for listening; I don't think I have any other information or personal opinions relative to this situation.

Bill

[GarysZ24]

No Bill,

I can't let this dog lay down without adding my extra .02. You and Casey, plus Mark get it, but I'll offer another take on it...right now, the first car to cross the finish line on a break out run doesn't automatically lose the race (and no lights are displayed), until the second car crosses the line...thus allowing the least breakout to produce the round winner, right??? So why not do for the starting line the same thing with regards to the possibility of a redlight...as you said the second car should have the same pressure applied to him/her as the first leaver does (thus to level out the playing field)...i.e. as Casey suggested, a "No Red" adjustment to the Christmas Tree, that would delay the display of the redeye until after the second car launched from the line, and the timers would then give the redlight to the worse of the two...I don't understand the difficulty in comprehending that ideal either, but I tell you what I sure can think of two recent year races that I could've possibly benefitted from a No Red First Leave display:

1. Quarterfinals at the LODRS DIV. VII #2 race at Tucson, Az. I wasted a right on the Dial in run on a redeye that was only -.013. Wes McGann would've had a chance to redlight too if he wouldn't have seen my redeye displayed while he waited just over 4.0sec's for his lights to come down after mine started to. I ran right on my dial-in too (15.940 on a 15.94 dial-in), which added more salt to the wound. If my red light wouldn't have been shown, then he would've had the same pressure I had to make his light good but quicker than the .092 that he carded in that run, and even though he broke out(11.555 on a 11.59 dial), it didn't matter, because the 46yr old first or worse rule applied. Some might say that my redlight was worse than his breakout, however if he had a chance to redlight because of the "NO RED FIRST LEAVE" display, then he could've redlighted too, and his could've been a -0.14 (or more)??? Even the "Drag Race Central" commentator said it proper by adding the caption "McGann gets an easy win as Hampton red lights"! Why should he and other faster cars get easy wins at our slower car expenses?

Why do you think guys such as Peter Biondo enjoy the perks of having one of the fastest cars wherever he goes now? Because under the current format (and in most of his races), he's going to be the second person to leave the line. He didn't need it before, but he sure is enjoying the perks of it now huh...Ohh and lest I forget other racers such as Dan Fletcher who made his Camaro faster so that he now gets to be a chaser more often than a chasee, and even Lee Zane has a faster car now than the one that gave him his claim to fame!

2. I had a similar race against Brad Burton last year in the LODRS DIV. VII RACE #1, where I redbulbed by -.022. Brads light was a .023, so if your ideal Bill would've applied here, then Brad would've had a chance to redlight as well since he was only safe from doing so by .024 (and he also gave up an over 4sec head start to me), but if he'd have done so his could've been worse than mine!? I just wish my light would've been green since we don't have that rule, because my breakout was just -.025, as opposed to his -.039.

Heck, the (now SS/AH) cars who used to rule Super Stock are getting a dose of their own medicine with the expansion of Super Stock to include Modified Production & Modified Stock cars (plus some of the GT classes), which are now faster than the DREADED HEMI used to be in both the SS/AA & SS/BA (plus SS/A & SS/B) classes...you sure don't see them as dominating as they used to be back in the 70's to late 80's huh???

Thanks to Drag Race Central for the stats on both races! Bill, I know I would benefit from your ideal, and I also know not to hold my breath, but isn't rather interesting how quickly numerous A/SA & A/S cars made the upgrades to AA/SA & AA/S...I wonder if this thread didn't touch on the primary reason why??? Heck, it almost reminds me of the pro classes, the people with the most money generally do most of the winning, because the rules seem to favor the have's over the have not's...the faster over the slower!!! Oh, and one more thing, Casey you hit another nail on the head by noting that the faster car has an easier judgement of the finish line over the slower car racer, because everything is in front of him/her (opponent/finish line), thus benefit number two of upgrading to AA/SA & AA/S...just my extra .02

[bill dedman]

Gary,

You make some good points, but if I gave the impression that this double red light system of doing things was ever MY IDEA, then I mis-spoke. It is a good idea; I WISH I had thought of it, but I participated in and watched drag racing for at LEAST 35 years using the "old" first red light system before a guy explained the double red light system to me. He had to explain it to me three or four times before I "got it," so ingrained was the "old" system in my so-called brain.

I'd LOVE to take credit for having thought this up, but...
I'M NOT THAT SMART! Obviously...

But, Tthanks for the kind words...

Bill

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Gary,

You make some good points, but if I gave the impression that this double red light system of doing things was ever MY IDEA, then I mis-spoke. It is a good idea; I WISH I had thought of it, but I participated in and watched drag racing for at LEAST 35 years using the "old" first red light system before a guy explained the double red light system to me. He had to explain it to me three or four times before I "got it," so ingrained was the "old" system in my so-called brain.

I'd LOVE to take credit for having thought this up, but...
I'M NOT THAT SMART! Obviously...

But, Tthanks for the kind words...

Bill

Well Bill,

We now have three things in common, we both agree with the double redlight system, our families (at least my dad's side of my family--Newport/Little Rock--& you by residence) share the same state, and we both have been involved (either as a live fan or racer) in drag racing for about the same length of time (34yrs for me). That's ok about your not wanting to take the credit for this ideal, but I hope that by your mentioning it, that the members of the Stock/Super Stock rules committee will present this thought to the powers that be in Glendora, or also to the IHRA's headquarters as well....one can only hope, however this one comes from the same person who still wishes that Glendora will do a reshuffling of the current divisional layout (much the same way that the NFL did 3-5yrs ago)? However, just like that one I'm not going to hold my breath on this one either, because like that guy and you felt, it's too logical to work!!!

Have a good weekend, and whoever is fortunate enough to be racing this weekend, have fun and good luck to you all...wish I were there!!!

[bill dedman]

Gary Hampton said, "That's ok about your not wanting to take the credit for this idea."

Gary, I'd love to take credit for it, but it was never my idea.... as I said, I participated in (for awhile) and watched racing with the "first red light" system (that's now in place) for many, many years before some guy explained the one-sided nature of the system to me in a way that I could understand it.

I would ~never~ have figured it out on my own....

It's not through a sense of humility that I deny any involvement in figuring out a fair way to fix this; it's facts. I had to have it explained to me repeatedly, before I understood what was wrong and how to fix it.

Appparently, I have a very thick skull....

BTW, I don't know how old you might be, but I am 70, and went to my first race in 1955.... and, was hooked. Can't imagine my life without drag racing... Don't want to, anyway...

Thanks for your interest and comments; you make a lot of sense to me!

Bill

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

BTW, I don't know how old you might be, but I am 70, and went to my first race in 1955.... and, was hooked. Can't imagine my life without drag racing... Don't want to, anyway...

Bill

I just turned 51 this past 24th of May, and although I watched my first car race in the mid-60's, I didn't learn about drag racing until after my oldest sister died back in '72 when she was 18, and I was 13. I saw the Winternationals where Bill Jenkins took the '72 Vega he debuted at Pomona to the winners circle, and I watched it on "ABC's Wide World of Sports", and also read about it in "Car Craft" Magazine (I had that issue bought for me prior to my sisters funeral, but tossed it years later, and now wish I had that "April, 1972 issue back!!! I'm sad that I lost my sister very much, but it was through that sad (confusing for me because I was too young to understand why they couldn't diagnose her blood clot sooner) time, that I learned about drag racing soon enough to plan for what I'd do with my first car once I bought it...I guess we didn't start racing at the same time afterall, because my first race was 20yrs later than yours.

I too however, can't imagine my life without drag racing...nor do I want to either !

[Mark Yacavone]

Been this way for 46 years. Not likely to change any time soon.

Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed
4708 S.E. Buchanan ************************** 3077 Bill Dyer
E4 ****WINNER**** -0.039 11.288 114.28 ******** -0.028 12.390 106.26
G/SA Dial: 11.28 (+/-): 0.008 ************** N/S Dial: 12.33 (+/-): 0.060
Prior rounds:
E3 (T Mosbek ) 0.015 11.281 -1.019 (N Grier ) 0.008 12.346 0.026
E2 (S Kopejtka ) 0.041 11.343 0.023 (J Nicholson ) 0.015 12.386 0.066
E1 (T Henderson ) 0.020 11.320 0.060 (C Stephenson) 0.095 12.356 0.036
Qualified: #11 11.242 -1.058 #39 12.319 -0.931

Buchanan will face Scheitlin in round five.

[bill dedman]

Isn't that a shame?

[S.E. Buchanan]

As I have told you in an earlier post. Most of the time if you see an opponents red
lite in time(which I did in the above case) I tried to see if I could red lite if I left
with just a hint of yellow instead of my usual solid yellow. As you can see I could.
This proves nothing in the last many pages of posts except You are distracted or
relax or can try something if you see a red lite in time.

I hope this ends this debate.

It was a very lively one.