CJ OUT at Indy!!

[buzzinhalfdozen]

OK easy everyone they didn't just decipher the dead sea scrolls, after talking directly with someone closely involved in this it seems to be nothing more than one hand of Ford not knowing what the other hand was doing. I'll leave it to someone else to fully explain but hey they could probably stack 2 head gaskets and go just as fast. Please try to wait till the full story comes out on this before labeling these guys, doubt they would bring something that was obviously illegal to a race with a 99% chance of tear down. Joe

[james schaechter]

Originally Posted by buzzinhalfdozen

OK easy everyone they didn't just decipher the dead sea scrolls, after talking directly with someone closely involved in this it seems to be nothing more than one hand of Ford not knowing what the other hand was doing. I'll leave it to someone else to fully explain but hey they could probably stack 2 head gaskets and go just as fast. Please try to wait till the full story comes out on this before labeling these guys, doubt they would bring something that was obviously illegal to a race with a 99% chance of tear down. Joe

I spoke with a couple of the CJ guys that actually know these pretty well. Ford submitted a production tolerance average instead of a minimum spec. I guess the guy that submitted the info was there and they were taking turns beating him LOL. I am sure the memo to correct this was already drafted. I also don't think the guys could have even reassembled the engines without some help. There are some tools that make the impossible possible. Maybe Ford will come out with a CJ teardown kit!

I don't see this piston dish spec or any other as any real issue. Ford will submit it and NHRA will accept it. These are really cool cars and they guys that I talked to Jimmy Ronzello and George Wright are nice guys and dedicated racers. I don't agree with the hp factor and class they are in, but I can't blame those guys for that.


I think the guy that got "jobbed" in teardown for stock was Tim Bishop. They couldn't read the entire number on his piston. He pulled a piston and rod. It weighed right, measured right and looked right. I would agree this would be something that should be reviewed, but that is what the big guy is there for at Indy right? I would have thought if a couple of senior tech guys said it was right, but they can't verify the # but it was clearly legal, the Head NHRA tech official would be able to make a call that would make sense. I guess he only flies out from California to eat the catered food and sit in the tower.

I didn't hang out in teardown, but I did talk to a couple of SS guys. One had a set of Manley rods that were not marked and was tossed and one he a chunk of epoxy that fell out and as luck would have it, that was the runner they checked!

[Big Angry Hillbilly]

Being a Ford mechanic, these DOHC supercharged motors are definately no fun to take apart, and likely something you are not going to have time to pull down between rounds.

You don't NEED special tools to time these, but it does make life a LOT easier.

Getting a head off a 4.6 SOHC in chassis is not a real fun task, I can't imagine a 32v motor in that chassis. Only 32v motors I've torn apart have either been in a Navigator, or on a stand.

[Ed Wright]

Those things make my Firebird look easy. I don't envy them. I pulled the engine this weekend to replace the valve springs.

[stage1scott]

Originally Posted by Longbob

Aren't they on the top of the motor?

yeah, on top all right-and-shoved so far back under the windshield I don't know how guys work on them either!! cooool cars though..................

[pro7474]

The cam gears on these engines are not keyed, so you have to use a set of special locks to position the 4 camshafts and the crankshaft and them you torque the canshaft sprockets on, the camshat and sprockets are a tappered fit. OTC makes a master kit thats does most Fords but the DOHC need another kit that is also by OTC around $300.
Chris

[z28camaroman]

The whole situation with Tim Bishop is probably the worst that I've seen in years. NHRA did not do the right thing here. There was nothing wrong with his pistons and this engine was built by one of the most respected engine builders in Stock Eliminator.

What really amazes me is the fact that CP pistons and NHRA are suppose to be on the same page and working in concert together in this world of Stock Eliminator that we live in. Both parties are suppose to know what the other one is doing and wants, but it's 180 degrees the other way! Chaos! No communication skills at all, that's for sure!

When you're dealing with the expenses in getting to Indy, and all it takes to maintain a race car, there is no excuse for what happened here. T. Bishop should be given the class win in this situation. This issue is between CP and NHRA. Not the racer who was legal in all parameters of his engine.

Jerry

[Rich Biebel]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

Those things make my Firebird look easy. I don't envy them. I pulled the engine this weekend to replace the valve springs.

Man thats a lot of work to change some springs! I changed mine on the car on my '97 and it was not to difficult but they were stocker springs.......If I had SS type springs it would be a lot tougher but I'd find or make a tool to remove them before I pulled the engine.

[bill dedman]

Somebody named "Voth" posted, about Fords, "their racing products have been inferior to GM for many years."

Perhaps you don't remember that when the Pro Stock program (rules) got changed to "all run 500 CID", it was partially because NHRA had grown weary of constantly adding weight to the 351 Cleveland engine during the preceding years, when Pro Stocks were run on a pounds-per cubic inch basis. Before the changeover to 500 cubic inches for everybody occurred, 351 Cleveland engines were required to carry more pounds per cubic inch that any other Pro Stock engine.

During the 1970's, the unprecedented rule that required "Cleveland" engines to carry an EXTRA HALF-POUND PER CUBIC INCH, over and above any other V-8 engine in Modified Eliminator was introduced!

Those canted-valve 351's from Ford had dominated Modfifed Eliminator racing so completely, in the classes they were eligible for, that NHRA added weight to them so the Chevys would have a chance against them. I don't remember how many years that rule was in effect, but there it was...

Maybe you don't remember that, but it happened.

Does that sound like a company whose racing products were "inferior to GM???"

No apologist for Ford, I'm a MoPar guy.... but, facts is facts.

I'll bet Terry remembers it... or, Travis...

[treessavoy]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Somebody named "Voth" posted, about Fords, "their racing products have been inferior to GM for many years."

Perhaps you don't remember that when the Pro Stock program (rules) got changed to "all run 500 CID", it was partially because NHRA had grown weary of constantly adding weight to the 351 Cleveland engine during the preceding years, when Pro Stocks were run on a pounds-per cubic inch basis. Before the changeover to 500 cubic inches for everybody occurred, 351 Cleveland engines were required to carry more pounds per cubic inch that any other Pro Stock engine.

During the 1970's, the unprecedented rule that required "Cleveland" engines to carry an EXTRA HALF-POUND PER CUBIC INCH, over and above any other V-8 engine in Modified Eliminator was introduced!

Those canted-valve 351's from Ford had dominated Modfifed Eliminator racing so completely, in the classes they were eligible for, that NHRA added weight to them so the Chevys would have a chance against them. I don't remember how many years that rule was in effect, but there it was...

Maybe you don't remember that, but it happened.

Does that sound like a company whose racing products were "inferior to GM???"

No apologist for Ford, I'm a MoPar guy.... but, facts is facts.

I'll bet Terry remembers it...

What Mr. Voth also doesn't know is that NHRA and NASCAR both added so much weight to the Hemi as to make it totally uncompetitive during the pro stock days because chevy was no longer competitive in the class as with NASCAR. Same with Trans Am setting a 302 cubic inch limit knowing that Mopar was the only manufacturer that DIDN'T make an engine that small.

Today, almost all types of racing today are set up for chevy to have the advantage, Ford has taken the challenge and is doing well, MOPAR no longer has the budget to fight the good fight and Pontiac did well on it's own engines for a while.

JimR