my opinion

[Jeff Lee]

Michael Beard said:
Instead of injecting my opinion here, let me just ask you: How many races should a racer have to attend to "earn" the National Championship?

Different sanction, but for what it's worth Bertozzi and I finished 1-2 in IHRA Stock a couple years ago with only 5/6 Nationals.

Good question. Don't know. But I do know I would want a system that gave maximum benefit to staying within your division. And I suppose I would be highly in favor of the old way (as I understand it). Win the divisional championship then run for the gold at the world finals.
It is not a waste of time and money to travel to races. Travel all you can handle. But just about everybody I know that races S/SS would never pursue a national championship under the current system; even if they were to win a divisional or two along with a national or two in any given year.
Taking the amount of time from work, much less family, to pursue this dream is daunting at any time, much less with the current economic times (and believe me, the economy ain't going to right itself anytime soon). However, myself and others I know, if we did well in our division, we would travel to any location in the USA for a chance at a national championship. That's one big trip and a lot of little trips that can lead to a championship as opposed to a LOT of BIG trips criss-crossing the country.
How different is this from the Jeg's Allstars series?

[Toby Lang]

Jeff,

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that to have a better chance at winning a championship you need to go to the maximum allowable races. I'm sure it was that way under the old waiver system also. Why don't you ask Al Corda how many events he had to go to back in the old days to win a championship? He lives by you, right? Or maybe Don could ask his good friend Al for you.

If somebody is seriously in the championship hunt they usually find a way to get to all the races allowed. I (and many others) think the system is just fine the way it is. I think the champion should be determined over a period of many races not just one.


-Toby

[Billy Nees]

Jeff, what is your issue with "Pro Sportsmen? I don't get it. Is it jealousy or ego or what? Over the years I've had a couple of chances to win the World but I couldn't take them. Just too many other comittments. I got over it. I'll never forget one year in particular I was kissing close to closing up my business and taking a shot when a chance conversation with an old friend (Joe Scott 1980 SS World Champ) changed my mind. He told me,"Billy if you need the ego massage then go for it 'cause you're not going to be doing it for the money". With that being said I didn't close my business for two months and go on the road. I can live with it. Why can't you?

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Jeff, what is your issue with "Pro Sportsmen? I don't get it. Is it jealousy or ego or what? Over the years I've had a couple of chances to win the World but I couldn't take them. Just too many other comittments. I got over it. I'll never forget one year in particular I was kissing close to closing up my business and taking a shot when a chance conversation with an old friend (Joe Scott 1980 SS World Champ) changed my mind. He told me,"Billy if you need the ego massage then go for it 'cause you're not going to be doing it for the money". With that being said I didn't close my business for two months and go on the road. I can live with it. Why can't you?

I have no ego involved in this "conversation". I will never be a world champion in S/SS because I do not have the desire. That is my prerogative just as it is your prerogative to quit work and take the family on the road. Since I have no desire, I am also not jealous. It seems really difficult for some people on this board to understand some people, like I, see a bigger picture than themselves. I've said it repeatedly here, if you want to go to all 24 races, go for it. Why would I care?
All I am saying is the rules, as written, not only encourage but demand attendance to all 14 points earning races if one wishes to pursue a national championship. As you said, it is called "Pro Sportsman"; which is it, "Pro" or Sportsman"?
It would seem this type of "Pro-Sportsman" racer could be defined as a "professional". As I demonstrated earlier, some "individual" sports (golf, bowling, maybe even fishing) have standards that separate the "sportsman" (or amateur), from the "professional" ranks. NHRA does not seem to separate the two. In fact, it is part of your language.
In fact, NHRA allows "professional" racers (think Pro-Stock multi-time national champion Jeg Caughlin and others) to compete against "Sportsman" racers. Does that practice seem equitable to you? Should Tiger Woods be allowed to compete on the same level playing grounds in the amateur tournaments? Kind of like shooting fish in a rain barrel in my opinion.

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

All I am saying is the rules, as written, not only encourage but demand attendance to all 14 points earning races if one wishes to pursue a national championship.

Encourage? Most definitely. That's the promoter's job!

In fact, NHRA allows "professional" racers (think Pro-Stock multi-time national champion Jeg Caughlin and others) to compete against "Sportsman" racers. Does that practice seem equitable to you? Should Tiger Woods be allowed to compete on the same level playing grounds in the amateur tournaments?

What does Pro Stock have to do with Stock or Super Stock? They are different disciplines. This is like allowing Tiger Wood to compete in a croquet tournament.

I'm one that does look at the bigger picture, but I'm not sure I'm seeing the same one as you. What exactly are you defining as problems and solutions?

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

Encourage? Most definitely. That's the promoter's job!



What does Pro Stock have to do with Stock or Super Stock? They are different disciplines. This is like allowing Tiger Wood to compete in a croquet tournament.

I'm one that does look at the bigger picture, but I'm not sure I'm seeing the same one as you. What exactly are you defining as problems and solutions?

Michael,
Your smart enough, I don't take you for stupid. If we indeed are "Sportsman" and are somehow separated from "Professional" since NHRA does indeed have these labels, a professional (by NHRA definition) should not be mixing it up with "Sportsmen" racers. As I explained earlier, there are many areas I believe differentiate one from the other and I would bet the IRS would agree with me. That is the "problem". The solution? That should be apparent. Don't allow professionals to compete against sportsmen.
Now I suppose some here have an ego that would encourage this mingling, as in, "wow, I beat Jeg Coughlin with my Gremlin today". I guess that would make one a hero. But the adverse is true, "dang, my Gremlin got beat by a full time professional pro-stock driver today".

I've explained my position until my fingers are blue. Can't offer any more and obviously a few here disagree with what I'm trying to point out and some don't even seem to understand what I'm saying. Since I make a living selling houses and writing contracts, I find that confusing. But so be it. I've made my case, you've made yours.
Thanks for listening and Merry Christmas.

[Billy Nees]

[QUOTE=Jeff Lee;

I've explained my position until my fingers are blue. Can't offer any more and obviously a few here disagree with what I'm trying to point out and some don't even seem to understand what I'm saying. Since I make a living selling houses and writing contracts, I find that confusing. But so be it. I've made my case, you've made yours.
Thanks for listening and Merry Christmas.[/QUOTE]

And you've finally hit the nail on the head! Some people are meant top be realtors, some crazy hermits and some very,very good drag racers! It's all in the hand that you're dealt. You have a wonderful Christmas Too (and please let us all try to remember the real meaning). Till the next time let's cordially agree to disagree.

[Dave Ribeiro]

Don & Jeff,

It must be real slow over at your old site S/S , last post was 11-20-09 ?
Has it shut down or what , so much for people not wanting No-names...
No-one likes to be told what to do ...... I think its great you guys have come over to the Dark side, keep it clean ?

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

If we indeed are "Sportsman" and are somehow separated from "Professional" since NHRA does indeed have these labels, a professional (by NHRA definition) should not be mixing it up with "Sportsmen" racers.

Semantics. "Sportsman" does not equal "Amateur". So... what do you do with IHRA S/SS racers, since we run the "Pro-Am" series, which was quite deliberately given that name by Bader as just another way to acknowledge the professionalism exhibited by the "sportsman" racer.

As I explained earlier, there are many areas I believe differentiate one from the other and I would bet the IRS would agree with me. That is the "problem". The solution? That should be apparent. Don't allow professionals to compete against sportsmen.

So, the problem is 1) with Pro Stock drivers running S/SS, 2) with people who claim their racing as a business running S/SS?

If 1) - again, what does driving a Pro Stock car have to do with driving in S/SS? They are totally different disciplines. Jeg and Line are exceptions to the rule who happened to be Sportsman Champions before they were Pros.
If 2) - if you seek a truly amateur status, should we race for just trophies as someone else pointed out?

Want to level the playing field? It doesn't have anything to do with Pro- Trees, Points, or Hood Scoops. It has to do with driving and strategy, both of which are learned skills.The biggest thing standing between Joe Average and the Touring Professional Sportsman racer is KNOWLEDGE. I've helped a bunch of people over the years with their driving, and will continue to do so, because I love our sport.

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

All I am saying is the rules, as written, not only encourage but demand attendance to all 14 points earning races if one wishes to pursue a national championship. As you said, it is called "Pro Sportsman"; which is it, "Pro" or Sportsman"?
It would seem this type of "Pro-Sportsman" racer could be defined as a "professional". As I demonstrated earlier, some "individual" sports (golf, bowling, maybe even fishing) have standards that separate the "sportsman" (or amateur), from the "professional" ranks. NHRA does not seem to separate the two. In fact, it is part of your language.
In fact, NHRA allows "professional" racers (think Pro-Stock multi-time national champion Jeg Caughlin and others) to compete against "Sportsman" racers. Does that practice seem equitable to you? Should Tiger Woods be allowed to compete on the same level playing grounds in the amateur tournaments? Kind of like shooting fish in a rain barrel in my opinion.

I see you're bringing up the pro versus amateur angle from other sports.

As far as I know, amateurs don't receive any prize money. Do you receive prize money when you win an NHRA event? Well, yes you do. Therefore, everybody that races in NHRA events is a pro.


-Toby